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Thread: Skaters/Judging experts on GS - Question

  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    The sport consists of recognizable, quantifiable elements linked together into a program or routine in which the use of the medium/apparatus between elements and the transitions from one element to the next are part of the content being scored, along with the difficulty and quality of the elements AND the holistic impression of the performance as a whole including such artistic extra-athletic qualities such as projection to an audience and expression of musical nuances while executing the technical content
    -freestyle figure skating (quantifiable elements and in-between skating skills and overall performance impression are all important)
    -freestyle roller skating (similar to ice but the in-between skating is less important than the elements)
    -IJS-era ice dancing and synchronized skating
    -synchronized swimming?
    -rhythmic gymnastics
    -women's floor exercise
    Rhythmic ==> The final score = Execution Score + (Artistic Score + Difficulty Score)÷2. All E, A and D scores range from 0 to 10. The perfect score in Rhythmic gymnastics is 20. The E/D ratio is 2. (http://gymnastics.about.com/od/major...micscoring.htm)

    Synchronized Swimming ==> The final score = Technical Merit Score (= Execution 40% + Synchronization 30% + Difficulty 30%) + Artistic Impression Score (= Choreography 60% + Music Interpretation 30% + Manner of Presentation 10%). The E/D ratio is 1.33. (http://swimming.about.com/gi/o.htm?z...26Itemid%3D119)

    Women's floor exercise ==> The final score = Difficulty Score (= Difficulty Value + Composition Requirements + Connection Value) + Execution Score (= Approximately 70% Execution + Approximately 30% Artistry). According to the newest rules, the number of elements that count towards the D-score is limited to 8 (each worth 0.7 maximum for the highest level). Maximum composition requirements score = 2.50. After adding the connection value and all that, the D-score ceiling is about 10 points. And the E/D ratio is about 0.7 (http://issuu.com/2008agwc/docs/01-1_...2012__english_).

    Figure skating ==> What's the E/D ratio in figure skating? 15%? 30%? Why so low compared to 70%, 130% or even 200% in other artistic sports? Yes, each sport is different, but this is my big question: Why should execution weigh so little in figure skating?
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 03-29-2012 at 05:15 AM.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Figure skating ==> What's the E/D ratio in figure skating? 15%? 30%? Why so low compared to 70%, 130% or even 200% in other artistic sports? Yes, each sport is different, but this is my big question: Why should execution weigh so little in figure skating?
    Just a wild guess -- the other sports I listed in this category are all for women only, whereas male powers-that-be in figure skating think that men's figure skating should not be
    scored in a way that emphasizes appearance and that transfers to the scoring for female skaters as well?

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think boundaries can be pushed in terms of execution and artistry, too.
    True. But as a sport, the athletic boundaries should be absolutely opened and encouraged. The artistic boundaries, though should be encouraged too, are always secondary given the nature of figure skating.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Just a wild guess -- the other sports I listed in this category are all for women only, whereas male powers-that-be in figure skating think that men's figure skating should not be
    scored in a way that emphasizes appearance and that transfers to the scoring for female skaters
    as well?
    I think so too. I think it's time to separate the scoring of men's skating from the ladies' skating. They should emphasize on different aspects. It's the nature which we should respect so that we could maintain the beauty and the charm of men and women.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    True. But as a sport, the athletic boundaries should be absolutely opened and encouraged. The artistic boundaries, though should be encouraged too, are always secondary given the nature of figure skating.

    ...I think it's time to separate the scoring of men's skating from the ladies' skating. They should emphasize on different aspects. It's the nature which we should respect so that we could maintain the beauty and the charm of men and women.
    So do you think that pushing athletic boundaries should be primarily encouraged and pushing artistic boundaries should be secondary in women's skating? (Or pairs skating, where the women are usually the biggest risk takers?)

    All the flexibility moves we see in the spins (and lifts and death spirals) now and that proliferated in the leveled spiral sequences a few years ago are one way of pushing athletic boundaries in specifically feminine ways. They're not necessarily specifically blade-on-ice oriented though -- I'd rather see more encouragement to push the boundaries on combining more complex bladework or extreme ice coverage with the current level of jump content.

    E.g., I'd like to see a leveled spiral sequence again, in one of the two programs anyway, in which the features are more about edge skills than positions.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So do you think that pushing athletic boundaries should be primarily encouraged and pushing artistic boundaries should be secondary in women's skating? (Or pairs skating, where the women are usually the biggest risk takers?)
    On the contrary, for the ladies, I think it should be the other way around. That's the reason I think men's and women's skating should be separated. I haven't formed my idea about pairs yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    All the flexibility moves we see in the spins (and lifts and death spirals) now and that proliferated in the leveled spiral sequences a few years ago are one way of pushing athletic boundaries in specifically feminine ways. They're not necessarily specifically blade-on-ice oriented though -- I'd rather see more encouragement to push the boundaries on combining more complex bladework or extreme ice coverage with the current level of jump content.
    I like this in ladies!

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    E.g., I'd like to see a leveled spiral sequence again, in one of the two programs anyway, in which the features are more about edge skills than positions.
    I do too, but only in ladies, not in men's.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 03-29-2012 at 10:21 AM.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    E.g., I'd like to see a leveled spiral sequence again, in one of the two programs anyway, in which the features are more about edge skills than positions.
    I'd like this too, with edge skills, speed, flow and ice coverage being more important than positions. And no Biellman positions. The Biellman spiral hides a weak back and is easier than the classic spiral position.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    I'd like this too, with edge skills, speed, flow and ice coverage being more important than positions.
    Speed, flow, and ice coverage will be covered in GOE, as well as the attractiveness of the positions.

    My proposals for the features:

    Maximum of four spiral positions

    To earn level 2 or higher the sequence must include forward and backward, inside and outside, and right and left foot spirals,
    (maybe back inside is required for level 4), but these don't count as features.

    *6-second hold

    *full length and width of the ice covered on one foot (with or without change of position or edge including turns)

    *maximum of two difficult transitions:
    -edge change maintaining free leg above 90 degrees -- edges must be clean
    -rond de jambe with no hand assist
    -choctaw or any one-foot turn with spiral position held 3 seconds before and after and free leg lowered just long enough to execute the turn (< 2 seconds?) -- edges must be clean
    -one-foot turn maintaining free leg above 90 degrees during and 3 seconds before and after the turn (three, bracket, counter -- I don't think it's possible in a rocker -- may be skidded); double-difficult transition counts as two feature

    *Maximum of one difficult position (includes 170-degree arabesque).
    Double-difficult positions that count as two features:
    -layout with the free leg lifted forward at least hip height, upper body arched back with the eye line pointed vertical (or behind vertical) counts as a double-difficult position worth two features if held at least 3 seconds.
    -170-degree split with free leg forward or side and no hand assist

    -any no-hand difficult position with the position maintained 3 seconds before and after a change of edge earns two features for the position and one for the change of edge

    *Direct transition between shoot-the-duck (hips lower than skating knee) and spiral position on same edge with no hand assist

    *Direct transition between spread eagle and spiral position on same curve

    Anything else?

    And no Biellman positions. The Biellman spiral hides a weak back and is easier than the classic spiral position.
    I disagree there. It's easier than a 170+ degree split with full extension and no hand assist. But it's not easier than the 90 degree "classic" position that earns no points for position.

    Any catch-foot position will make it easier to hold the free leg in a position that would be difficult or impossible to achieve without the hand assist. But it will also make it harder for the skater to control balance over the blade in that position.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Women's floor exercise ==> The final score = Difficulty Score (= Difficulty Value + Composition Requirements + Connection Value) + Execution Score (= Approximately 70% Execution + Approximately 30% Artistry). According to the newest rules, the number of elements that count towards the D-score is limited to 8 (each worth 0.7 maximum for the highest level). Maximum composition requirements score = 2.50. After adding the connection value and all that, the D-score ceiling is about 10 points. And the E/D ratio is about 0.7 (http://issuu.com/2008agwc/docs/01-1_...2012__english_).

    Figure skating ==> What's the E/D ratio in figure skating? 15%? 30%? Why so low compared to 70%, 130% or even 200% in other artistic sports? Yes, each sport is different, but this is my big question: Why should execution weigh so little in figure skating?
    Women's Floor Exercise really doesn't place all that much emphasis on artistry. In the last five years or so, there has been a significant amount of debate over how much of the execution score it should comprise, but it is really only .3 of a point. The rest of the execution score is for literal execution deductions- amplitude, height, and extension included with specific execution deductions for each. The nebulous "artistry" deductions are not usually taken up to the level they could be. So pure artistry- the stuff in between the elements- is worth VERY little of the execution score (about 0.03), and subsequently only about .02 of the total score for a routine with a D-score of 5.0 (average at the -highest- levels of competition).

    There's actually been some debate about the relative importance of execution (primarily) and artistry (secondarily) in comparison to sports like figure skating, which is seen by some as valuing both components of an exercise much more than gymnastics currently does in overall comparison with the difficulty performed. Currently, the ratio of D-score (difficulty) to E-score (execution) is high enough that many argue that it encourages very sloppy execution of hard skills and just kills artistry.

    Back in the days of the 10.0 system, that .3 of artistry could actually distinguish more accurately between top gymnasts because tenths of points were more important. Going back even farther (1980s and earlier) there was what was known as an ROV bonus (Risk-Originality-Virtuosity) that I believe was worth .5 of a point (I was too young to remember specifics). It was eventually eliminated to remove some of the subjectivity from the sport, and thus to try to prevent national bias in scores, but many have argued that it was a valuable descriminator.

    Also of note, artistry is also evaluated (minimally) on balance beam, and I believe it is evaluated on men's floor exercise as well (though I've only ever judged women's gymnastics nationally, and have to date only read the women's international code). On balance beam, rhythm deductions are common as well, and though listed as execution deductions, could also be considered part of the artistry of the routine. Long pauses before and between skills would qualify for rhythm deductions.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    As a sport, the athletic boundaries should be absolutely opened and encouraged. The artistic boundaries, though should be encouraged too, are always secondary given the nature of figure skating.
    "If we look at other sports it is clear that the most risky sports (diving, aerial skiing) have very low contributions from difficulty towards the final score while the most aesthetic sports (synchronized swimming, rhythmic gymnastics) have a more balanced proportion" (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...ufJQ&cad=rja). One of the reasons that most sports keep an E/D ratio of at least 1 is to protect the athletes from injury. Athletic boundaries in most sports are about execution--scoring a goal, which is product-oriented, not so much about the process (e..g, a good but failed attempt).
    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlightSkater View Post
    Women's Floor Exercise really doesn't place all that much emphasis on artistry.
    Thanks for your explanation. And so I gathered from your post that the E/D ratio in the Women's Floor Exercise is actually very close to 1.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 03-29-2012 at 12:36 PM.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Figure skating ==> What's the E/D ratio in figure skating? 15%? 30%? Why so low compared to 70%, 130% or even 200% in other artistic sports? Yes, each sport is different, but this is my big question: Why should execution weigh so little in figure skating?
    I agree with this point of view. There is nothing unsporting, unathletic, or unmanly about excuting your technical elements well, or about a scoring system that encourages you to do so.

    Listen to the audience. When a man attmpts a difficult quad, but is tilted in the air, fights for a scratchy landing, saves a fall by putting a hand down, the audience is afraid to applaud because it might be interpretted as anti-fans saying, yay, you messed up, ha ha. But a few people pat their hands together, like, well, at least he tried.

    Ok, the audience does not comprise experts and judges. But in this regard I think the audience is onto something. The scoring system should not lavish praise on elements executed badly.

    (JMO)
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-29-2012 at 05:02 PM.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    should only go to hip shaking on the move on one blade.
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Alena's program is typical Morozov choreo which has high success rate of getting high scores with minimal effort, with rest stops masquerading as "artistic expressions".
    These statements from the Ladies - Short Program thread seem to support my philosophy: The Presentation Score in figure skating should be a product of both skating skills and artistic expressions (i.e, performance, choreography, interpretation). We should not add them up with a cumulative scoring method as if the absence of one (e.g., skating) can be compensated by the fullness of the other (i.e., good acting performance).

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