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Thread: Skaters/Judging experts on GS - Question

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Gkelly, I really love your point that one aspect that makes skating so appealing is that audiences (especially at home on TV) can see the skaters' faces. We feel much more connected to them personally, which adds to the emotional content of the program for us. The emotional and artistic elements of skating are part of what sets skating apart from other sports. If those things are taken away (because they can't be quantified for a judging system), skating may or may not become more of a sport, but it will certainly become less of a draw.
    I don't think there's any reason to take them away. The skaters will still not be wearing helmets (although some argue that they should, especially for pair skating). The TV broadcasts will still give closeups. The skaters will still try to reflect nuances of the music in executing the skating and elements because that shows greater mastery and is rewarded in the scores.

    And some skaters will go beyond that to tell stories or paint pictures or engage the audience with their skating, and they will largely be rewarded and certainly not penalized for doing so.

    Under any system and any rules, there will be some skaters who are not naturally extroverted and not naturally musical who might decide, correctly, that their energies are best spent perfecting difficult technical skills and who will win by doing so successfully, while more fan-friendly skaters with weaker technical skills (or weaker mental focus in competition) attract more fans but win fewer medals.

    At worst, that might lead to skaters who temperamentally could choose to emphasize either technical skills or performance skills choosing to focus on technique under IJS whereas they would have put more focus on performance under 6.0.

    But the really driven ones will try to excel in all relevant areas -- and if they succeed it's even more exciting to see a performance that's strong in all areas technically (not just jumps) and artistically.

    And the skaters of artistic temperament who can't develop the skills to win under IJS would most often not have won under 6.0 either.

  2. #47
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Anonymous judging hasn't hurt viewership because most don't know it's anonymous now. Pro skating had people like Boitano that competed like it was the Olympics. Certain skaters (Kristi, G&G) maintained excellence. Kurt Browning, Tara, Kulik, Eldridge, Sasha without the jumps even, were always worth watching. Orser, Wylie, Browning, Boitano, even Scott tried to bring it to the serious pro skate comps. Button isn't the only rich promoter. What happened that elite pro competitions died completely? In my memory, we had a few in it to win women-not enough. Kristi and Yuka and somehow MK would end up there and win. Pro-ams which may have been popular, however unfair to pros.

    The new technical program could be longer, with "mastery" at the elite level (as that is what mass skating audience tuned into, carefully considered.) Skaters are doing that now, except with music, costume, choreo. My stripped down vision really lets us see who can do what. As someone said, in a tech program, costumes, choreography, and music are judged, rewarded or penalized. So all the "i hated skater x-s program, choreo, costume and esp MUSIC becomes null and void.

    At the elite level we are seeing big bucks spent on two similar programs. I think us artistic types will miss the old sp. But think what a well understood and scored tech program with a level playing field could do. Only skills (and presentation/line are skills) Still GOE, levels all that if you want. The TV audience is about Senior elite skaters. Lower levels could be done the same way.

    How many times did I see in later years that MK choreography got very plain. Better footwork. Her big coup to becoming MK was the best choreographer, original music, expensive, beautiful look. Glamour would have no real part in the tech skate. It shouldn't, but it does. Look at the trend in mens skating with costumes. I don't think it would be dull at all. We'd still see people doing as much as they could under the rules. One last point about music. Either your team (if you have one) does good job or they blow it.

    Watch some of your favorite skating and see how much excitement is the music. What is more emotionally manipulative than music? We shouldn't be judging the music and someones expensive, far better choro anyway, as it is someone elses work. ITA in the tech program. Turn off the music and judge what the skater is doing. A truly tecnical program would level the playing field. That said, Chan would be winning still with cleaner skates, but Caro likely would not.

    And MM, you are right about the point total on the jumbotron. If adult skaters or died hard GS fans think that this IJS will draw crowds. I think not. There would still be the free skate as we know it. And the gala skates, shows etc, which often disappoint. I think it can gain anew a great fan base with emphasis and redesign on "sport." The sport is in Asia now, and I think they'd love this. (They love everything really, it seems!) North America and Europe are not putting out the skaters. Cost is huge. SO make competiton really about skill sets and make it more affordable.

    Why do so many people love basketball? it's fun, it's fast paced and it is affordable. Think about it. The sugestion is about leveling the field a bit and appeal to many more people. Probably, it doesn't matter much in some countries what they do-it gets accepted. But the judging has not gone over well with the skaters/stars here in America. Hence we get comments about nothing, listing the jump layout, and jokes about Flatt being able to understand the scoring system. A tech program is excellence (or trying) in all the skills, not just jumps. It would no longer be short. So keep it small and exclusive and for the rich. Or make some changes. Rudy Galindo was a great skater, with his sister for a coach. He is the second oldest mens champion and that was 1996.

    The more expensive, the fewer skaters/talents we will see. It is terrible we have a choice of watching it on IN/internet now around the world.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    The new technical program could be longer, with "mastery" at the elite level (as that is what mass skating audience tuned into, carefully considered.)
    So is this only for elite skaters?

    How does this plan affect the hundreds of senior-level skater around the world, many of whom are over 19 and don't have the choice of competing as juniors, at least internationally? What kind of competitions should all those skaters enter on their way to trying to become "elite" enough to be worth your attention, and TV networks' attention?

    My stripped down vision really lets us see who can do what.
    But you don't want to see any skaters except those who have already proven themselves to be among the very very best in the world?

    At the elite level we are seeing big bucks spent on two similar programs. I think us artistic types will miss the old sp. But think what a well understood and scored tech program with a level playing field could do. Only skills (and presentation/line are skills) Still GOE, levels all that if you want. The TV audience is about Senior elite skaters. Lower levels could be done the same way.
    I still don't understand what you mean. The ISU competition rules are not just about the senior elite skaters. They're about all senior and junior level skaters. These skaters compete under the same rules all season. Those who are the best in their respective countries, and age eligible, get to go to Worlds -- skating the same programs they've used all season (with occasional rare exceptions) under the same format used at all their events.

    Cost is huge. SO make competiton really about skill sets and make it more affordable.
    The biggest expenses, over the years, in getting to the elite levels in the first place are ice time and coaching. That's not going to change. Taking away the music and the costumes isn't suddenly going to

    You could get music and a year's worth of off-the-rack skating clothes for a few hundred dollars. If you have the skills to compete with the best, cheaper packaging isn't going to make a huge difference in your results. If you don't have the skills to compete with the best, more expensive packaging isn't going to make much difference in your results either.

    Yes, it can make the difference between almost-elite and elite, or between contending for top 10 and contending for medals.

    But just getting to the point where better packaging could get you into the elite takes many years of practicing many hours a week, with coaching for much of that time, preferably from a very knowledgeable coach whose hourly rates reflect that expertise. Over the ~10 years it takes to get from beginner steps on ice to senior level, that's hundreds of thousands of dollars worth. Someone -- whether the skater's parents or government or corporate sponsors -- is paying for that time.

    It's not a sport you can get anywhere near elite-level good at without expensive resources. Ice time is expensive. Training only in the winter on a backyard pond isn't going to cut it in the 21st century -- nor in most of the 20th.

  4. #49
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Speaking of music, I have a question about copyrights in figure skating.

    If you are a child, or a recreational skater who competes for fun, can you just download your favorite song from your ipod and skate to it?

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    How cheeky you are.
    I was in my naughty mood. This is what CoP straight line footwork reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiW1rcdVLQE#t=0m010s

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I never understood and never tried to understand 6.0. CoP is pretty much straight forward. If you want to find out the reason why this skater won over that skater, read the protocols. They are all there. Unlike 6.0 which requires extraordinary psychological penetrating into the judges' mind,
    True. As a non-skater, the protocols help me to understand how the marks are allocated on different elements whereas under the 6.0 system, it's a one size fits all, You can disagree with the judge and not know where the disagreement is from (assuming all things being equal ie. the skaters in question didn't fall and executed all elements well).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    The difference is that under CoP, there is no country given for your ranting. So you don't know where your fist should punch. As a consequence, the skater/skaters are used for the purposes. If people really need a punch bag that much, CoP should invent one, such as giving each judge a designated number or letter. No name and no country, but a specific number or letter to identify the judges. And they are kept secret which judge gets which number. So people could at least "throw eggs" to the specific number or letter. Satisfied.:
    I like this suggestion Bluebonnet! There should be posters with shadow-faces and numbers on them representing the judges in the hallway of the skating rink. After the competition, unhappy fans can put pins/throw darts/eggs on the face posters to vent their anger.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    I was in my naughty mood. This is what CoP straight line footwork reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiW1rcdVLQE#t=0m010s
    that was hysterical.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think the average spectator knew or cared anything about flip-flips. I know I didn't, and still don't. Midway through the event it looks like i am ahead of the other guy, but after everyone skates and all the scores are tallied, I end up 14th and the other guy got 13th.
    I don't think anyone ever really cares what happens within a couple of places of 14th place, but the most egregious example of flip flopping was 1997 European Championships in the men's event. In theory - you have to be in the top three after the short to "control your own destiny" but then this happened:

    SP:
    1. Kulik
    2. Zagarodnuik
    3. Vlascenko
    4. Candeloro
    5. Yagudin
    6. Urmanov

    Then in the LP:

    1. Urmanov
    2. Candeloro
    3. Zagarodnuik
    4. Yagudin
    5. Kulik
    6. Vlascenko

    I think skate order in the final group also played a role in the head scratching, but it basically mean that all of the medal winners were tied on factored placements and the free skate results was the breaker which mean the podium ended up being the top three in the LP, but I believe that also skate order mean one that had been leading swapped in for third by the time all the maths was added up.....though again i'm not 100% sure because I never understood what happened at that championships other than Urmanov came from 6th to win because everyone else made errors in the long and other people skating better than someone else based on position put neough of gap that it came down to ttie breaker of factored placements.

    As I said - point total seems much easier than trying to woro iout what happened there!

  9. #54
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    That example is analyzed in detail here: http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/obo/score-tech.shtml

    In any system with factored placements, if a skater who didn't control his own destiny after the short program was leading the freeskate, then factored placement flipflops were likely, depending on who beat whom as the freeskate continued to develop.

    Under the majority ordinal system then in use, in either short or long program mixed ordinals could lead to place switching within that program.

    Both those things happened during the men's freeskate at 1997 Europeans, so it was doubly confusing for observers who weren't intimately familiar with how that scoring system worked.

  10. #55
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Speaking of music, I have a question about copyrights in figure skating.

    If you are a child, or a recreational skater who competes for fun, can you just download your favorite song from your ipod and skate to it?
    Good question. What you cannot do is have your mom film you, and then upload it to youtube. In fact if you are11 years old, and have your dad film you singing John Lennon's So This is Christmas song, accompanying yourself on the guitar, you better not upload it to youtube. Google takes down the video and threatens you with the wrath of Yoko Ono.

  11. #56
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I don't think anyone ever really cares what happens within a couple of places of 14th place, but the most egregious example of flip flopping was 1997 European Championships in the men's event. In theory - you have to be in the top three after the short to "control your own destiny" but then this happened:

    SP:
    1. Kulik (.5)
    2. Zagarodnuik (1)
    3. Vlascenko (1.5)
    4. Candeloro (2)
    5. Yagudin (2.5)
    6. Urmanov (3)

    Then in the LP:

    1. Urmanov (1)
    2. Candeloro (2)
    3. Zagarodnuik (3)
    4. Yagudin (4)
    5. Kulik (5)
    6. Vlascenko (6)
    Totals:

    Urmanov 3+1 = 4
    Candeloroo 2+2 = 4
    Zagorodniuk 1+3 = 4
    Kulik .5+5 = 5.5
    Yagudin 2.5+4 = 6.5
    Vlacenko 1.5+6 = 7.5

    For the three skaters tied with 4 points, the LP breaks the tie.

    Ant, my man! Is this your example of something that is hard to understand? Let's go over it again. 3+1 = 4, ...

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Speaking of music, I have a question about copyrights in figure skating.

    If you are a child, or a recreational skater who competes for fun, can you just download your favorite song from your ipod and skate to it?
    Not sure about skating, but in dance you can dance to whatever you want in competition. Of course, there was no YouTube back then, so we didn't have to worry about videos on the Internet (heck, we hardly even had that lol).
    I was watching Dance Moms and kept wondering why in the world the girls were dancing to a bunch of unknown (and pretty bad) songs until I clued in that it would cost the production company a fortune in licsencing.

  13. #58
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The one team that I ever saw get in public trouble over using a song was Domnina & Shabalin. The writer and performer on part of their Aborigine OD refused to give them approval to use the song. They hadn't asked her, and she found their Europeans performance unfortunate, so between Europeans and Olympics they had to generate something to fill the gap where her song wasn't any more.

  14. #59
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    The one team that I ever saw get in public trouble over using a song was Domnina & Shabalin. The writer and performer on part of their Aborigine OD refused to give them approval to use the song. They hadn't asked her, and she found their Europeans performance unfortunate, so between Europeans and Olympics they had to generate something to fill the gap where her song wasn't any more.
    I find this a little karmic, and amusing, but only because I hated this team, their Aborigine program, the awful, awful costumes. It seems to me there was a decision "We can't let NorthAmerican icedancers sweep the Olympic podium." I remember nothing of the scoring but I felt that their bronze was political maneuvering. How did they beat Belgosto? Or a few other teams for that matter? Tanith and Ben were so gracious. They should have shown their annoyance and distaste for Olympic judging baloney.

  15. #60
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    Too put it bluntly, no, there is no other way to judge figure skating. There has to be a benchmark to judge skaters by. As you eluded to Trixi Schuba, skaters used to be judged mainly on the figures portion and then in the Karen Magnussen/Janet Lynn era the short program and long program were revamped to be higher and the figures counted for less. Of course, as we all know eventually the figures were left out of the competitions all together. I do feel that something was lost when figures were taken out of the equation. Of course, today that benchmark for men is the quad and for ladies the triples. There will still always be skaters though who are better at jumping than other skaters and skaters who are more artistic than technical skaters. That has not changed. Also every skater is a victim of his or her nerves on any given day. Interesting thoughts though.

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