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Thread: junior men - Short Program

  1. #91
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    For me, the "complete package" applies to the all round best like Browning, Yagudin, Lambiel, Chan, Takahashi, et al. There are complete packages missing nerves/consistency such as Abbott and Sandhu. Some of my favorite skaters are great artists without the biggest jumps, like Sawyer, Beacom, Britten, etc. Some others may be even more beautiful to watch if they dumb down the technical contents further. They would made good show skaters but they don't get a chance without big medals. While I think Lysacek won his OGM fair and square, my problem with him is not about his on and off quad but lack of artistry and charisma. Kozuka and Oda are almost there, missing just a little to account for their relatively fewer wins.
    There seems to be some that say Brown doesn't have a 3A so he's suddenly in the "great performers but have little chance of being a successful competitive skater in the future" category. And there are others who put him in the "complete package/all-around skater" category because despite the lack of 3A/quad he does seem to seem to have a solid handle on everything else (no UR/edge call triples besides the 3A, level 3/4 non-jump sequences, decent PCS).

    My stance has always been is that he still has things to work on (including the 3A), but that he already shows an overall package that seems to have worked for him so far in his career and has yielded success as a junior-level skater. I think that is what most people are talking about.

    Certainly if he wants to get to that "elite" or "platinum" all-around skater category that will bode success at the senior level (a la Takahashi, Chan and even Abbott), he will need a 3A/quad + further refinement.

  2. #92
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    I have not been interested in Juniors before but this year's crop is truly promising. I posted a few months ago Han Yan was my discovery this season. Farris is getting my attention too. (Brown is a can't miss with all the GS gushes.)

    Of the future of these three, I would send them shopping. Yan needs a good choreography, while Farris should buy himself some personality and Brown technical prowess. Who do you think has the best chance of getting what he needs very quickly and easily?

    Since they are all so young and talented, I have no doubt eventually they will all grow into the complete packages or nearly so

    eta. I formed my impression of Farris watching his SP but after the LP, I wouldn't even call him dull. He has flair and just needs refinement and expression, like all young ones do.

    etaa. I had wanted to write a story of three little princes going to the Wizard of Oz but couldn't come up with a good name for Farris. There lies his problem. No obvious and distinctive characteristics, physically or name and style wise.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 03-07-2012 at 02:16 PM.

  3. #93
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I have not been interested in Juniors before but this year's crop is truly promising. I posted a few months ago Han Yan was my discovery this season. Farris is getting my attention too. (Brown is a can't miss with all the GS gushes.)

    Of the future of these three, I would send them shopping. Yan needs a good choreography, while Farris should buy himself some personality and Brown technical prowess. Who do you think has the best chance of getting what he needs very quickly and easily?

    Since they are all so young and talented, I have no doubt eventually they will all grow into the complete packages or nearly so

    eta. I formed my impression of Farris watching his SP but after the LP, I wouldn't even call him dull. He has flair and just needs refinement and expression, like all young ones do.
    I guess Brown is striking to many GS posters because he does have that performance aspect down. Of course audience connect =/= successful competition. But I think many see him as one to watch because he does combine that performance ability with a solid — if not complete — arsenal of technical elements. And I think the fact he has that ability as a junior stands out given the canned programs most juniors have.

    I think it has been harder for some to connect to Farris or Han because they don't necessarily have that same draw/personality or choreography that grabs you and says "I'm one to watch for!" It's a great achievement that both skaters have quads/3A and other technical abilities (such as SS for Han) at such a young age (especially considering most juniors don't have those elements), but for some reason it doesn't resonate the same way for some as being precocious in choreography/performance.

    I think Yan getting choreography will depend on his federation being willing to spend the money for it. Given his GPF medal and JW win, I would say he has good chance on getting it. Now that his growth spurt/boot issues have settled down, Brown can focus more on the 3A. I would say the the challenge is greatest for Farris to get some personality because that's not as tangible an item to get as getting a 3A or some decent choreography. I'm not sure if you can teach "personality" per se, but maybe he'll be inspired by Chan and the other skaters.

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    Yan is one of those whose moves within the first seconds of a program impresses me with the quality of his skating, something I get from very few skaters, and never from a Junior. His immediate speed and his edges hit me right away. Though he needs to stroke, unlike Chan who generates speed from seemingly nowhere, Yan is very fast with ice coverage and huuuge jumps. There is a basic quality that permeates every aspect of his skating even though some of his arm movements and expressions could use quite a bit of improvement. That is a great foundation to build on. He is more like Chan that way too, but even more precocious but that is what I always say about someone raising the bar to become the standard for the next ones.

    Both Yan and Farris seems to be shy young boys and a little maturity and seasoning will bring out their personalities and performance/expression I am sure. See Yan's ex program for artistry. Brown is hard working and determined so his 3A will come. Of course then quad will be demanded of him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P
    ...or even "Jason will someday beat Patrick Chan."
    I can pinpoint exactly where this has been said. It was in 2012 US Nationals thread.
    Yes, it was also said that Jason Brown made Abbott look like a novice.

  5. #95
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    For some reason, This is beginning to sound like a Wizard of Oz movie moment. I expect Han Yan, Farris & Brown to break out singing "If I Only Had a Brain/Heart/Nerve," but changing it up this way:

    Han Yan
    If I only had a show

    Farris
    a style

    Brown
    the jumps

    So we're off to see the Wizard

    etc

  6. #96
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    For some reason, This is beginning to sound like a Wizard of Oz movie moment. I expect Han Yan, Farris & Brown to break out singing "If I Only Had a Brain/Heart/Nerve," but changing it up this way:

    Han Yan
    If I only had a show

    Farris
    a style

    Brown
    the jumps

    So we're off to see the Wizard

    etc
    Wait, did you come up with this thought on your own or did your work off of SF's edited though from earlier?

    etaa. I had wanted to write a story of three little princes going to the Wizard of Oz but couldn't come up with a good name for Farris. There lies his problem. No obvious and distinctive characteristics, physically or name and style wise.

  7. #97
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    My own, but there's something about the 3 of them that just begs for Judy Garland to be skipping along beside them.

    Obviously great minds troll in the same gutter here

    SF's problem is that the 3 guys in WoO are not princes, they are clowns; in fact, farm hands back in Kansas, and a Lion, Tin Woodman & Scarecrow in OZ.

    Once you try to make the clowns princes, it gets harder to fit them into the story.

    Farris is clearly the Scarecrow-what bugs me about his skating is that it lacks power and tension in many ways, kind of loose and floppy.

    Han Yan gets to be the Tin Woodman, perhaps a little too rigid, not enough show to his show

    Which leaves Brown to be the Lion, based on quirky, and not trying the hardest jumps (nerve).
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 03-07-2012 at 03:16 PM.

  8. #98
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    ^^^^ Oh I was just continuing with my tales of the Golden Kingdom, where now King Patrick rules.

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    Lol. I don't know about Yan but Josh Farris is apparently rather shy and quiet and serious off the ice so I think in order for him to show more personality, he and his coaches/choreographers need to find music he really likes to skate to, and that will maybe bring out more passion and expression from his skating. The switch to Rachmaninoff from Transformers was a good move IMO, Josh had mentioned Rach No. 3 is one of his favorite pieces and the Transformers program really did not suit him well or really show off his strengths as a skater. He also seems to get nervous and a bit tense, he mentioned being very nervous at nationals and the commentator even said that he should try and relax and rely on his training more because he has all the skills he just needs to trust himself more. I think the result at JW should give him some good confidence going into next season. His 3a is already pretty consistent/solid, and it sounds like the 4t is close to competition ready, so in the off-season I assume he'll be working mostly on adding strength and expression to his skating and getting that 4t in his programs. We shall see, but from what I can tell, Krall and Allen are very nurturing coaches so I think they will help him in this aspect, and also training with Patrick Chan, who Josh has mentioned as being a good friend and inspiration. He's in good hands and seems to know what he needs to do to be competitive on the senior ranks. Confidence and personality on the ice generally come with age, lots of kids, especially boys, are kind of awkward and unsure of themselves at 17 (and Josh just turned 17 a couple months ago).

    We'll see what happens at Worlds, but I think it's likely Han Yan will be China's number 1 man going into next season and I think the prestige that holds will get him more attention and likely access to better choreographers who can create better programs that play to his strengths as a skater. He is capable of handling complex choreography, he just needs programs where his speed, big jumps, and power can be showcased. He doesn't really have an artistic or lyrical style, but with the right choreographer and programs, he can still be really impressive with effective programs regardless.

    As for Jason I don't think he needs to dump Kori as a coach, but maybe he should start working with someone else as well, I was thinking maybe a jump coach for the 3a and if he's going to try and start learning quads too than for that as well. He has the goods but he's the only top skater Kori has ever produced and I think some fresh influences in his training could really bring a new dimension to his skating that could make him even more unique. Plus a jump coach could help get that 3a hopefully quickly and maybe provide more strength to his overall skating, which would also really help make him stand out even more than he does already.

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    Oh and for the record I think Jason Brown has as much to work on as the other two medalists, and well actually more because he hasn't shown the 3a in competition yet. I agree that Jason already has a unique style, but I wouldn't say his style is more developed than the other two. I think because the top 3 are such different skaters, it's easy to say that Jason has the most developed artistry, but what I would really say is that he is just more of an extroverted performer. Han Yan is about big jumps and speed and power, he is somewhat similar to Brian Joubert, who was never really known for being "artistic" but earned top PCS marks because he had a distinct style that showcased his strength. That is what Yan needs, he doesn't need to work to become really flexible and skate to Sleeping Beauty, that is not the kind of skater he is. His choreography could be improved, but in the future, his choreography should serve the purpose of emphasizing his speed, strength, and athleticism, rather than trying to make him seem lyrical or elegant, which by nature he is not.

    As for Farris if you compare his skating/programs this season to those he had last season with Tom Z, you'll see he made huge strides artistically already. He was able to do well on the JGP under Tom Z because he was a strong technical skater, but his PCS have improved leaps and bounds this season since switching to Krall and Allen. Under Tom Z, you could see Josh had the potential to be an elegant skater with his flexibility and stretch and long lines, but he was so focused on tech and his programs were just random and he didn't connect to them at all because the focus was just jump, jump, jump as a junior skater under Tom Z. In his Clair de Lune SP and the Rachmaninoff FS, Josh's flexibility, stretch, and long lines are used to his advantage to create programs with a refined, romantic style. Johnny Weir mentioned in his commentary at Nats how Josh's skating was very organic and made use of classic lines, wasn't flashy, no excess, and how he really liked his SP because his interpretation of Clair de Lune was very romantic and free. Josh had these qualities all along, but under Tom Z. they weren't being exploited because his programs were centered around the jumps. Now that his programs bring out the strengths in his skating, his PCS are so much higher and all of a sudden you realize this kid has the potential to be a really artistic, elegant skater. So I assume, as long as clever music and choreography choices continue to be made, this progression will only continue and the strength and confidence he will gain with age will also help.

    Jason naturally has "it", but apart from the 3a, his skating needs refinement. His speed could be improved and more strength I think would help make his programs deliver even more of a punch. Because he is such a natural and unique performer, I'd like to see him experiment with different kinds of programs and see which he can pull off best. Johnny mentioned at Nationals how his FS this season was different from the fun programs we are used to seeing from Jason, it was a bit softer and more serious, but at the same time, it was very affective. Versatility will earn him respect in the eyes of the judges if he can do it well. Jason can sell a lot of different programs well, but through experimentation, we may find what style suits him best, and once that's discovered, he can really focus on building that style up and selling it to the audience.
    Last edited by silverlake22; 03-07-2012 at 05:56 PM.

  11. #101
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    Yan can be elegant if he gets a good choreography. I really enjoy his JGPF EX last season. I think his skating skill will help him to become a naturally graceful skater like Carolina Kostner.

    Han YAN 2010 GPF EX Gala
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNiL3nPquyg

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    Well, China will be sending their Men overseas for new choreographies and Han Yan wishes for his idol Patrick Chan's choreographer.

    http://news.sports.cn/figureskating/...8/2182296.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I'm surprised that you think "complete package" is a compliment.

    I don't

    It is what Dick & Peggy used to say of skaters whose technical content not quite first rate (but acceptable), or who tended to fall a lot, and whose artistry they were trying to convince the TV audience of. It was said of skaters like Sasha Cohen, who were very pretty, and had lovely extensions, but kind of crappy jump technique. Or Jill Trenary, same deal-when she was competing with Kristi Yamaguchi & Tonya Harding in 1989. Or Nancy Kerrigan.

    Patrick is better than that. I hope that some day Jason will be better than "the whole package".
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    BTW, Evan Lysacek was always referred to as a "whole package" skater. Again, one can short of a six pack in the technical department (the quad)

    They would also be selling Ashley Wagner as the whole package:
    Pretty, with exaggerated claims of artistry
    Two footed jumps (sometimes) Underrotated (sometimes) and flutzy (always)
    And I don't particularly like her posture.

    You see how this works.

    Again, nothing one would ever say of Patrick these days.

    So it looks like Canadians mean something different by whole package?
    Correct me if I'm wrong. I think it is not a Canadian way or American way. It must be the English way. The commentators merely used it in a broader range in order to talk about the said skater in a more positive way. No matter they are Americans or they are Canadians, anyone will define "complete package" as its face value - meaning having both athletic as well as artistic abilities. However, different people think differently. Many think Lysacek has both athletic and artistic abilities so he has a complete package. But many others think that he is lack of artistic abilities and doesn't have the hardest jump, so he is not a complete package. Unless the English itself has different meaning on it, it will be interpreted as it is. The difference is that people on one side see it as half full, people on the other side see it as half empty. In fact, I've read not long ago that some posters (I have reason to assume they are Americans) have used this word like "how Canadians use it".

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Well, China will be sending their Men overseas for new choreographies and Han Yan wishes for his idol Patrick Chan's choreographer.

    http://news.sports.cn/figureskating/...8/2182296.html
    Wow! That's exciting!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 03-08-2012 at 12:10 AM.

  14. #104
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I don't know whether Canadian commentators use the phrase "complete package" or "whole package" to hype skaters who demonstrably are short in the technical department or not, but I can tell you for sure that American commentators do, and because skaters who are phenomenal in both the "artistic" and technical areas are very rare, it's by far the most common usage of the term.

    The emphasis is on "package" as in well-packaged, rather than on the "whole".

  15. #105
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I don't know whether Canadian commentators use the phrase "complete package" or "whole package" to hype skaters who demonstrably are short in the technical department or not, but I can tell you for sure that American commentators do, and because skaters who are phenomenal in both the "artistic" and technical areas are very rare, it's by far the most common usage of the term.

    The emphasis is on "package" as in well-packaged, rather than on the "whole".
    And I think that's what many posters — including myself — think also. And for me, having that package certainly doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement or that skater has arrived.

    I also think perhaps a more appropriate way to describe Jason's skating is having a foundation, i.e. he has shown proficiency on both sides, now he needs to build on the foundation to take his skating the next level.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-08-2012 at 10:45 AM.

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