junior men - Short Program | Page 6 | Golden Skate

junior men - Short Program

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I'm surprised that you think "complete package" is a compliment.

I don't ;)

It is what Dick & Peggy used to say of skaters whose technical content not quite first rate (but acceptable), or who tended to fall a lot, and whose artistry they were trying to convince the TV audience of. It was said of skaters like Sasha Cohen, who were very pretty, and had lovely extensions, but kind of crappy jump technique. Or Jill Trenary, same deal-when she was competing with Kristi Yamaguchi & Tonya Harding in 1989. Or Nancy Kerrigan.

Patrick is better than that. I hope that some day Jason will be better than "the whole package".

BTW, Evan Lysacek was always referred to as a "whole package" skater. Again, one can short of a six pack in the technical department (the quad)

They would also be selling Ashley Wagner as the whole package:
Pretty, with exaggerated claims of artistry
Two footed jumps (sometimes) Underrotated (sometimes) and flutzy (always)
And I don't particularly like her posture.

You see how this works.

Again, nothing one would ever say of Patrick these days.

So it looks like Canadians mean something different by whole package?

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think it is not a Canadian way or American way. It must be the English way. The commentators merely used it in a broader range in order to talk about the said skater in a more positive way. No matter they are Americans or they are Canadians, anyone will define "complete package" as its face value - meaning having both athletic as well as artistic abilities. However, different people think differently. Many think Lysacek has both athletic and artistic abilities so he has a complete package. But many others think that he is lack of artistic abilities and doesn't have the hardest jump, so he is not a complete package. Unless the English itself has different meaning on it, it will be interpreted as it is. The difference is that people on one side see it as half full, people on the other side see it as half empty. In fact, I've read not long ago that some posters (I have reason to assume they are Americans) have used this word like "how Canadians use it".

Well, China will be sending their Men overseas for new choreographies and Han Yan wishes for his idol Patrick Chan's choreographer.

http://news.sports.cn/figureskating/2012-03-08/2182296.html

Wow! That's exciting!
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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I don't know whether Canadian commentators use the phrase "complete package" or "whole package" to hype skaters who demonstrably are short in the technical department or not, but I can tell you for sure that American commentators do, and because skaters who are phenomenal in both the "artistic" and technical areas are very rare, it's by far the most common usage of the term.

The emphasis is on "package" as in well-packaged, rather than on the "whole".
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Dec 27, 2009
I don't know whether Canadian commentators use the phrase "complete package" or "whole package" to hype skaters who demonstrably are short in the technical department or not, but I can tell you for sure that American commentators do, and because skaters who are phenomenal in both the "artistic" and technical areas are very rare, it's by far the most common usage of the term.

The emphasis is on "package" as in well-packaged, rather than on the "whole".

And I think that's what many posters — including myself — think also. And for me, having that package certainly doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement or that skater has arrived.

I also think perhaps a more appropriate way to describe Jason's skating is having a foundation, i.e. he has shown proficiency on both sides, now he needs to build on the foundation to take his skating the next level.
 
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Bluebonnet

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Aug 18, 2010
Han Yan has the flare and potentially could develop a lot in artistic area. Maybe Lori Nichol could bring out the best of him next season. Looking forward to seeing it!
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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God forbid Lori Nichol...other than Carolina's SP, nothing she's done lately does anything for me.

But what will be, will be.
 

chuckm

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Aug 31, 2003
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I thought Michelle Kwan's Aranjuez was far more expressive than Chan's. Chan is a great technician, but as a performer he doesn't touch the heart for anyone but his ubers.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Gee now I have to agree with the American Brown ubers that he is indeed a complete package.

Well, to me at least, not having a quad seems shouldn't hurt the "complete package" concept because quad is such a prestigeous element and represents the pinnacle of the technical abilities. But not having a 3A seems a lot to missing in a "complete package". I don't know. If anyone really insists it is still a "complete package" without 3A, be it. It's just a word game and affects nothing.

By the way, I think Joshua Farris does have his own style in skating. Maybe it's not that kind of in your face style and hair which make him stands out. But he does have it. Particularly his use of his wrists made his skating different from others.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Dec 27, 2009
Gee now I have to agree with the American Brown ubers that he is indeed a complete package.

Edited: I'm confused now. First read I thought you were complaining that we were forcing you to agree. But now as I read it again, it seems that you are agreeing?

Can you clarify your stance?

ETA: I hope we can move on from semantics. I feel like I've spent too much time clarifying what Brown has to bring to the table, regardless of your view of "complete package" or "all-around skater."
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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We have moved to such a low plane of semantics, that perhaps it's time to move the discussion(s) out of the Junior World Championships men's SP thread and into thread(s) in The Edge?

Possible thread topics:

What does a skater need to have to have the "whole package"? Does this concept differ between different countries?

Should Patrick Chan seek choreography from someone other than Lori Nichol? (Hint-I'd love to see this! No more antique music, please!)

Joshua Farris needs his own thread. Bluebonnet, would you like to start one?

What makes a skater memorable? Can being memorable be learned? What skaters of the past were memorable, not for their competitive scores, but for their performances?
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Well, to me at least, not having a quad seems shouldn't hurt the "complete package" concept because quad is such a prestigeous element and represents the pinnacle of the technical abilities. But not having a 3A seems a lot to missing in a "complete package". I don't know. If anyone really insists it is still a "complete package" without 3A, be it. It's just a word game and affects nothing.

By the way, I think Joshua Farris does have his own style in skating. Maybe it's not that kind of in your face style and hair which make him stands out. But he does have it. Particularly his use of his wrists made his skating different from others.


ITA. And I like Jason and I apologize to his ubers for saying this, but at this point, I think Josh is the better skater and closer to being the full package than Jason. Everyone might not appreciate his artistry, but he IS an artistic skater, in addition to being flexible, elegant, a very good spinner, and a solid technician who has a 3a (and quite a nice one at that) in his arsenal already. He's also been training the quad for two seasons now, and we saw at nationals it's pretty close. I know some complain that he is boring or balletic, but since leaving Tom Z, he has come a LONG way artistically. Compare his last season programs to this season's and you'll see what I mean, he almost looks like a completely different skater, one who incorporates a whole lot more emotion, expression, and tension into his skating. I see what some people say regarding Josh needing more power, but I believe that will come in time, and already he has become stronger than before since he's started to fill out through the shoulders this season and look more "manly" on the ice. For me, all this kid really needs to go places on the senior ranks is more power, and then a consistent quad would help too. Plus he's so young, everyone keeps saying that about Jason, but Josh is even one month younger and has been jumping 3a since he was 14, so he can afford to really work on strength and getting that 4t consistent now, and those are really just extra things to make his skating even better, because everything else is so solid already.

I mean, Rippon is US #2 right now, and Josh has a lot of the same strengths as Adam along with a much better 3a. And actually, the PCS Josh got at JW are already close to what Rippon gets internationally, same goes for Miner. Further, Dornbush and Mahbanoozadeh, both are who well below Josh on the SB list, on average, actually got lower PCS internationally this season than Josh did on the junior ranks. I think as early as next season, maybe the season after, who is man number 2 in the US will come down to who among Rippon, Miner, Dornbush, and Farris gets a consistent quad first, in addition to being a good/consistent competitor. Mahbanoozadeh could be in the mix too if he continues to improve under Christy Krall, but currently he doesn't get much love from the international judges so it might be harder for him. If Jason can get a consistent 3a, I will add him to this list as well, but when I say consistent 3a, I mean dependably landing/rotating one in his SP and two in his FS on a regular basis, and trying for that every time out, because as special a skater as he is, if he's going to keep up with other men going for three 3as and one or two quads between their two programs, he'll need to at least be trying for three 3as.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Edited: I'm confused now. First read I thought you were complaining that we were forcing you to agree. But now as I read it again, it seems that you are agreeing?

Can you clarify your stance?

ETA: I hope we can move on from semantics. I feel like I've spent too much time clarifying what Brown has to bring to the table, regardless of your view of "complete package" or "all-around skater."

Now that I realize what "complete package" means to the Americans, I agree with the American Jason Brown ubers' declaration of him being a complete package. When in Rome..........

I reserve my understanding of the term to apply to great skaters deserving recognition as such when the discussion is not American centric.

chuckm said:
Chan is a great technician, but as a performer he doesn't touch the heart for anyone but his ubers.

Patrick Chan's ubers include the highest level judges and many great as well as up and coming skaters. He has also inspired a great number of young aspiring ones at various stages of their skating careers. Good company I would say. :thumbsup: We have good taste, recognize talents, and have hearts to be touched. :cool:
 
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