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Thread: junior men - Short Program

  1. #61
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    Jeremy and Josh trained together for years under Tom Z. so it's not that surprising they seem similar. I think they have a similar body type, flexibility, and sensitivity to the music, so I understand where you are coming from. But, I also think Josh has a unique style, just like Jeremy does. I am impressed with how Josh manages to skate in such a light, elegant way, but still has power behind it. Like at the end of his FS here, when the music builds and he kept landing jump after jump and started to get really excited, there was a freedom and strength in his skating that left a big impression. He seemed like a powerful, confident man out on the ice instead of a nervous teenager trying so hard to not mess up. I found his FS stunning for these reasons and hope he can keep up the good work. He is a really bright and unique talent IMO and seeing as how he lost out on the title by less than half a point, I'm wondering if it's maybe a blessing in disguise. Now he can move up to seniors internationally without having so much pressure and attention on himself. The kid already obviously works very hard and is very driven to succeed. He seems like a good kid and I think he has a bright future ahead of him. I think it's cute how much he looks up to and loves training with Patrick.
    Last edited by silverlake22; 03-05-2012 at 03:09 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Jeremy and Josh trained together for years under Tom Z. so it's not that surprising they seem similar. I think they have a similar body type, flexibility, and sensitivity to the music, so I understand where you are coming from.
    Oh, I knew nothing about these and just google checked Ferris' background a few minutes ago and found out that he was from Colorado Springs. I was so good at identifying styles. Seriously, I agree that Ferris has his own unique style but he has Abbott's elegance and he can do transitions into jumps like Abbott. Seeing his skating, it almost confused me with senior competitions. Abbott does the same jump layout: 3F-3T, 3A, and 3Lz. Ferris did 3A, 3F-3T, and 3Lz. Training with Patrick Chan! What a privilage and inspiration!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 03-05-2012 at 03:34 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Does anyone think Joshua Ferris is a bit like young Jeremy Abbott? I think Ferris has a bright future. He is technically sound and artistically sufficiant. I'm looking forward to seeing him in seniors. Han Yan is very technical. I agree that he has a lot to improve in artistry and music interpretation. But I believe he'll get there. Jason Brown is sooo slowww!
    I think Jeremy, Joshua Farris, and Jason (as well as Abbott and other U.S. men) all have their own unique movement styles. IMO, Joshua's smooth, lyrical style that he displays this season is more reminiscent of Johnny Weir's smooth elegance, than it is of Jeremy's unique way of moving. Prior to this season, I think under Tom Z, Joshua's style emphasized the athletic aspect of his skating. Since leaving Tom Z, his new coaches have helped bring out more of the lyrical, refined quality of Joshua's skating. Josh's sp skate to Clair de Lune is very "romantic" and that is how Johnny Weir described it too during his commentary for Icenetwork.

    I have to laugh tho' at your perception that Jason skates "sooo slowww!" Have you see Jason skate live? I wonder if you are not perceiving that he skates slow because he is doing so many intricate and detailed movements/ transitions utilizing his entire body as he skates. But that doesn't mean he is actually moving "sooo slowww" as you seem to think. Sure if Jason skated like Han with more crossovers, perhaps Jason's speed would be more apparent. Jason skates very low in his knees and he expresses every nuance of his music. To me Jason's skating is very engaging and mesmerizing. He always seems to be telling a story when he skates.

    As I said, I truly think the current U.S. men all have their own uniqueness, and that's wonderful to see. Jeremy is simply in a class by himself, IMO. Of course, having formerly trained with Jeremy, Josh may have emulated something from Jeremy. Again, tho' I don't see their styles as being that similar. I do think Jeremy (as well as Josh) came into his own with greater confidence after leaving Tom Z.

    BTW, I read in his Wikipedia bio that Jason plays piano (so does Armin). That is probably one reason why Jason is so good at musical interpretation in his skating.

    ETA:
    After looking at the top Jr. World Men's skates again, I have to say that while Joshua is an elegant, lyrical skater with strong technique and athleticism, IMO, he could improve by finding a way to exude or express more of his personality into his skating. For young skaters, that can take more time for them to develop. Jason, as silverlake (I believe) mentioned, is more of a precocious performer, and as he matures, I imagine that Jason will continue to further develop that expressive performance aspect of his skating, b/c with maturity all young athletes learn more about who they are.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 03-05-2012 at 05:07 PM.

  4. #64
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    Well said, Art!

    Maybe the "Jason skates soooo slow" comment is more about the movement of his body rather than the speed at which he skates (which is actually wonderful). He takes the time to finish each movement whether it be upper or lower body which may make it appear he's slow.

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    I agree with the point about Han Yan getting better choreography -- he has good, fluid expression in my opinion with his body (not his face, I had trouble connecting with his Cotton Club face last year bc he had kind of a blank expression in a jive-y, jazzy upbeat piece), but the choreography is average and the music cuts are AWFUL (his SP this year, those cuts make me cringe). But I also agree that the style of the SP worked a lot for him, he has good flow and speed and the Shostakovich waltz really brought it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    I have to laugh tho' at your perception that Jason skates "sooo slowww!" Have you see Jason skate live? I wonder if you are not perceiving that he skates slow because he is doing so many intricate and detailed movements/ transitions utilizing his entire body as he skates. But that doesn't mean he is actually moving "sooo slowww" as you seem to think.
    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Maybe the "Jason skates soooo slow" comment is more about the movement of his body rather than the speed at which he skates (which is actually wonderful). He takes the time to finish each movement whether it be upper or lower body which may make it appear he's slow.
    No, I meant what I've said. Jason was so slow on ice. Take a look at Jason's SP from 1'41" to 2'29". Yes, I agree that Jason was focusing on doing those intricate detailed movements and he did those movements so well. If he had increased his speed on ice, he might not have been able to finish those movements with the same qualities. That was the problem. And that was the reason why the judges generally love the skaters who have high speed and still could do superior quality interpretations and choreographs with great on ice speed.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 03-06-2012 at 08:52 AM.

  7. #67
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    If he's as slow as you claim he is, his SS mark would be much lower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    If he's as slow as you claim he is, his SS mark would be much lower.
    Junior competitions are different from seniors. If he gets the same SS in senior competitions with all the top skaters in them, that means something. Well, on the second thought, I've just checked the results. His SS was only 6.75 in SP. I admit that I wasn't seeing him as a junior when I said it. It was good enough for Juniors, like 2A was good enough for getting on the podiums in Junior competitions.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 03-06-2012 at 10:00 AM.

  9. #69
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    You can go look at his protocols from Senior men at US Nationals. His PCS scores were quite good there and he did a 2A in place of the 3A there as well.

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    I've gone to see 2012 US Senior Nationals results:

    1. Abbott SS= 8.71
    2. Rippon SS=7.75
    3. Mahbanoozadeh SS=7.29
    4. Miner SS=7.39
    5. Messing SS=7.18
    6. Aaron SS=7.11
    7. Brown SS=7.11
    8. Razzano SS=7.04
    9. Carriere SS=7.11
    .
    .
    12. Mroz SS=7.04

    It didn't prove anything otherwise. His SS was not competitive in seniors. In senior international competitions, his SS will be under 7.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 03-06-2012 at 09:40 AM.

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    Jason Brown's SS are far above average in both junior and senior ranks. Your criticism that he skates "sooo slowww" is very nitpicky and actually warrantless. He is skating with sufficient speed and wonderful ice coverage while interpreting the music extremely well, unlike Han Yan who needs better choreography and development of his musical interpretation and artistic presentation. If Jason was skating that slow, it would hamper enjoyment of watching him, plus it would affect the landing on his jumps (he has superb rideout on jump landings, which means he is not skating too slow). It is only your perception or your imagination. I would ask and listen to what an unbiased judge thinks, plus I trust my own eyes too.

    ETA:
    The fact that Jason made mistakes in the latter half of his fp is what caused him to place 9th at U.S. Nats -- he may have placed a couple of places higher had he not made those mistakes, plus it is notable that his score in the sp was over 75 pts (which means that if he'd landed a clean 3-axel in the sp, he would have scored an additional five points and probably landed in 3rd place ahead of Armin and others). Jason is definitely competitive, and it will be interesting to see what happens next season should he wield a 3-axel when he competes in international seniors. He is still young, and he has a way to go probably before international judges will give him a lot of credit right from the start. But let me put it this way, if Jason Brown was Canadian, he would probably be hyped on a level that rivals the hype the Canadian fed and press gave to the young up-and-coming Chan.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 03-06-2012 at 08:58 PM.

  12. #72
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    Of course Jason's SS is far above average. But we are comparing the best Junior Men in the world here and perhaps to Seniors of similar age. Jason says he has two more years of Junior so he's probably not in a hurry but wants to take his time to be an all round skater by the time he goes on to the Senior rank.

    As it is, I see Han and Josh as being more all-round than Jason who has the most interesting choreography but he does trade off speed and big jumps to execute it. That is fine unless he wants to compete as a Senior internationally.

    eta. As for comparing the hyping of Brown and Chan, since somehow their progress are always compared, does anyone see Brown as the National champion now and a Senior Worlds medalist next year? These were Chan's achievements at the same age, not hype.

    There is a difference between accolades and hypes.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 03-06-2012 at 09:44 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    But let me put it this way, if Jason Brown was Canadian, he would probably be hyped on a level that rivals the hype the Canadian fed and press gave to the young up-and-coming Chan.
    At this age, Patrick has had solid 3A and was in senior level two seasons and competed in senior GPs two years, has gotten TEB gold and SA bronze, and also made into GPF. Then he won senior National championship in the same year.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    As it is, I see Han and Josh as being more all-round than Jason who has the most interesting choreography but he does trade off speed and big jumps to execute it. That is fine unless he wants to compete as a Senior internationally.
    That's what I meant. Thanks for saying it in an articulate way!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 03-06-2012 at 11:21 PM.

  14. #74
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    Actually, Patrick's 3A was an iffy proposition till last year...when he was older than 17. But no one is claiming Jason Brown is the next Patrick Chan, or even that he is ready for seniors right now. They are only using Patrick as an example of a skater who found the 3A elusive for a while, and then conquered it; it shows that this is possible, and hoping that Jason will be one of those for whom it is possible.

    And again, I would like to reiterate, it is possible to find a skater enjoyable to watch without having to claim that they will ever win anything significant at the senior level.

    In fact, Tracey Wilson was gushing about Jason on the CBC broadcast of Jr Worlds, exclaiming at how interesting his skating was, how quirky and innovative his choreography was, and what a mature performer he was, and how he used every beat of the music, and how memorable he was. She had noticed him at US Nationals last year, and how much she looked forward to seeing him skate.

    All true, but it won't win Jason US Nationals without a 3A and a 4T these days.

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    Nothing wrong with loving and gushing about any skater of one's choice. However, debates often arise from mixing competitiveness with personal preferences or a skater having much appreciated but incomplete aspects of skating.

    I find both Han and Joshua, both of whom have expressed admiration for Chan's skills, more reminiscent of Chan's skating, yet Jason is the one constantly compared to Chan on progression of their abilities, particularly on acquiring of 3A. I have shown with facts and data that Chan was winning Senior medals including Worlds Silver with his excellent 3A at Jason's current age. He only had a few problems last season when he added quads to his programs and has had consistently successful 3A again this season. I simply don't see where the insistent comparison comes from.

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