junior men - Short Program

[Mrs. P]

Nothing wrong with loving and gushing about any skater of one's choice. However, debates often arise from mixing competitiveness with personal preferences or a skater having much appreciated but incomplete aspects of skating.

I find both Han and Joshua, both of whom have expressed admiration for Chan's skills, more reminiscent of Chan's skating, yet Jason is the one constantly compared to Chan on progression of their abilities, particularly on acquiring of 3A. I have shown with facts and data that Chan was winning Senior medals including Worlds Silver with his excellent 3A at Jason's current age. He only had a few problems last season when he added quads to his programs and has had consistently successful 3A again this season. I simply don't see where the insistent comparison comes from.

Let's get away from the 3A point for a moment.

Do you not think that the things that Tracey Wilson and others have noticed:

... how interesting his skating was, how quirky and innovative his choreography was, and what a mature performer he was, and how he used every beat of the music, and how memorable he was.

Doesn't resonate with judges or are reflective in scoring? I think it's because of those things that Jason has been able to be competitive in juniors and seniors (at the national level) despite not having a 3A. He just missed being in the final group of Senior Nationals FS, that's nothing to snuff at, beating many guys with a 3A.

As I said in past points, that may all change next season as he moves up to GP events and Worlds. But I think while he doesn't have the whole package yet, there are many reasons people are optimistic.

[SkateFiguring]

Tracy did voice similar opinions as many fans and nobody is snuffing at Jason who has accomplished a lot. However, it's fair game to compare him to his close rivals as future Senior contenders. His current abilities and potential are not to be denied. However, there have been many premature pronouncements of his greatness not yet achieved. No, without a 3A, he cannot be called an all round complete package, now that younger Juniors such as Yan, and even little Nam Nguyen has landed 3A in international competitions. The bar is very high these days.

[dorispulaski]

SkateFiguring-people that admire Jason Brown are in many cases, those that admired Rohene Ward and Shawn Sawyer-they are not talking about who is going to win competitions. They are talking about who they enjoy watching and why.

They would like to hope Jason will get a consistent 3A. It may not happen. So they look for skaters who had at some times problems with a 3A, and they find:
Patrick Chan, who had no such thing as a good 3A=he had a 3A he could land well sometimes, but often fell on in competition, for whatever reason. And now he has a relatively consistent one.

Patrick is picked to compare to because HE WAS SUCCESSFUL AT OVERCOMING HIS PROBLEMS. And that is what those that admire Jason, hope for him. Do you think they want to cite Shawn Sawyer, a very interesting skater, who never did manage to have a consistent, well performed 3A, thus predicting failure at the outset?

No one is attacking Patrick Chan.

No one is saying Jason Brown will ever even be in an event where he will be competing with Patrick Chan.

No one is even saying Jason Brown will ever win or place top 3 at US Nationals.

They are just hoping he will succeed in going on a bit farther because they like his skating.

Why do they not talk about Han Yan or Jonathan Farris, who have 3A's, and probably a more assured future in skating?

Because they are not at this time mature performers, who use every beat of the music, and have interesting, quirky choreography, and who are memorable. And because, therefore, they are not at all interested in Han Yan or Farris.

Farris & Han Yan have at this moment not yet become memorable. And in fact, memorable skaters are a lot rarer than skaters with triple axels and quads. Can Farris & Han Yan become memorable? In fact, that is as a difficult a proposition is Brown getting his triple axel. Skaters that are memorable are pretty few and far between, and most of them were memorable from the first time you saw them.

Brian Boitano is a skater who became memorable later in his career, so the trick can be done. Of the two, I think Han Yan may, with the right choreography, become a memorable skater. I have less hopes for Farris.

But you see how this is? When you look at a skater that you like with a bar to leap, you look to see whether that bar has bothered some previous skater that has then overcome it successfully. With "memorable" this is tricky, because it is possible to win an Olympic Gold Medal without ever being a particularly memorable skater, or ever wanting to be a memorable skater. Witness Evan Lysacek.

That is not saying that Han Yan will win the Olympics like Brian Boitano, only that he may yet become a memorable skater.

[SkateFiguring]

Doris, it's not about Chan being attacked or not but about facts. I compiled the data before to show you that Chan had about 90% 3A success rate when he 17 to 18 years old. How could he have won all those international medals including Worlds silver without a good and consistent 3A?

I don't know why a better and factually correct way to compare Brown to Chan that would serve the purpose you stated is not used at all. It will be entirely accurate to say that at 19 Chan was mocked for not having a quad but a year later he had one of the best in the business and won the Worlds title while smashing records by doing 3 quads successfully. I will never protest that hopeful comparison.

[Mrs. P]

Doris, it's not about Chan being attacked or not but about facts. I compiled the data before to show you that Chan had about 90% 3A success rate when he 17 to 18 years old. How could he have won all those international medals including Worlds silver without a good and consistent 3A?

I don't know why a better and factually correct way to compare Brown to Chan that would serve the purpose you stated is not used at all. It will be entirely accurate to say that at 19 Chan was mocked for not having a quad but a year later he had one of the best in the business and won the Worlds title while smashing records by doing 3 quads successfully. I will never protest that hopeful comparison.

I guess it's probably more accurate that people are looking to Chan because he did workout his challenges/goals — whether it was getting a quad later in his skating career (20 y.o.) or dealing with his problems last season with his 3A while he was working on his quad.

Perhaps the facts were wrong, as you pointed out, but I don't think it changes the intent or the point.

I think there's a fair amount of people "talking over each other" as Doris says. I think the comparison to Chan has been misconstrued as "Jason Brown is the next Patrick Chan" or "Jason Brown will be a world/national champion like Patrick Chan" or even "Jason will someday beat Patrick Chan." I think people are just saying, "There are examples of people working out their goals/struggles/challenges for the long-term." or "Jason should look at Patrick Chan as someone who didn't have a money jump (the quad for me mainly) and now has it in spades."

[Bluebonnet]

...or even "Jason will someday beat Patrick Chan."

I can pinpoint exactly where this has been said. It was in 2012 US Nationals thread.

[SkateFiguring]

I don't see people proclaiming Brown to be the next Patrick Chan. That's not regarded a compliment by many and Brown has actually been proclaimed as better than Chan in some aspects or will soon surely be. I don't see people stating Brown is about to win international Senior medals though some have said he would have won this JW if only he had the 3A and his Senior success is extremely likely.

I am just a stickler for facts and well reasoned speculations and not one for twisted or wrong impressions stated conveniently as truth. I don't deny Brown is talented and has great potential. But wrong statements are made about someone else and premature announcements are made about Brown.

Chan is precocious and successful. He is admirable in how determined and fast he overcomes obstacles and improves himself. As such, he has not had long term struggles. His struggles are always exaggerated and ingrained in people's memories but they have not been "long term". He often resolves them within half a season. That's one of the factors of his amazing rise to the ever higher level in skating.

[Spun Silver]

SkateFiguring-people that admire Jason Brown are in many cases, those that admired Rohene Ward and Shawn Sawyer-they are not talking about who is going to win competitions. They are talking about who they enjoy watching and why.

They would like to hope Jason will get a consistent 3A. It may not happen. So they look for skaters who had at some times problems with a 3A, and they find:
Patrick Chan, who had no such thing as a good 3A=he had a 3A he could land well sometimes, but often fell on in competition, for whatever reason. And now he has a relatively consistent one.

Patrick is picked to compare to because HE WAS SUCCESSFUL AT OVERCOMING HIS PROBLEMS. And that is what those that admire Jason, hope for him. Do you think they want to cite Shawn Sawyer, a very interesting skater, who never did manage to have a consistent, well performed 3A, thus predicting failure at the outset?

No one is attacking Patrick Chan.

No one is saying Jason Brown will ever even be in an event where he will be competing with Patrick Chan.

No one is even saying Jason Brown will ever win or place top 3 at US Nationals.

They are just hoping he will succeed in going on a bit farther because they like his skating.

Why do they not talk about Han Yan or Jonathan Farris, who have 3A's, and probably a more assured future in skating?

Because they are not at this time mature performers, who use every beat of the music, and have interesting, quirky choreography, and who are memorable. And because, therefore, they are not at all interested in Han Yan or Farris.

Farris & Han Yan have at this moment not yet become memorable. And in fact, memorable skaters are a lot rarer than skaters with triple axels and quads. Can Farris & Han Yan become memorable? In fact, that is as a difficult a proposition is Brown getting his triple axel. Skaters that are memorable are pretty few and far between, and most of them were memorable from the first time you saw them.

Brian Boitano is a skater who became memorable later in his career, so the trick can be done. Of the two, I think Han Yan may, with the right choreography, become a memorable skater. I have less hopes for Farris.

But you see how this is? When you look at a skater that you like with a bar to leap, you look to see whether that bar has bothered some previous skater that has then overcome it successfully. With "memorable" this is tricky, because it is possible to win an Olympic Gold Medal without ever being a particularly memorable skater, or ever wanting to be a memorable skater. Witness Evan Lysacek.

That is not saying that Han Yan will win the Olympics like Brian Boitano, only that he may yet become a memorable skater.

Heeeey, slow down, Doris! Some of us are still hoping Jason will pull out the big jumps and be a contender at the senior level. He's only 17--we can hope!

Other than that, I second everything you said. Let's hear it for the memorable ones.

[dorispulaski]

Well, I have my hopes for Jason. I had sworn never to get overly invested in junior skaters again, but the memorable ones pull me in every times. But I am not making any assertions about his future success. Just saying a few prayers that he stays healthy and learns his big jumps soon, and that let the future take care of itself.

[Mrs. P]

I don't see people proclaiming Brown to be the next Patrick Chan. That's not regarded a compliment by many and Brown has actually been proclaimed as better than Chan in some aspects or will soon surely be. I don't see people stating Brown is about to win international Senior medals though some have said he would have won this JW if only he had the 3A and his Senior success is extremely likely.

I am just a stickler for facts and well reasoned speculations and not one for twisted or wrong impressions stated conveniently as truth. I don't deny Brown is talented and has great potential. But wrong statements are made about someone else and premature announcements are made about Brown.

Chan is precocious and successful. He is admirable in how determined and fast he overcomes obstacles and improves himself. As such, he has not had long term struggles. His struggles are always exaggerated and ingrained in people's memories but they have not been "long term". He often resolves them within half a season. That's one of the factors of his amazing rise to the ever higher level in skating.

I guess I'm confused then. What "premature announcements" are you referring to? I don't read every post on this board, so it's possible I missed it. The posts I've seen as of late (and my posts about him) have been more about Jason's potential and not an pronouncement that Brown is the future of figure skating.

Also, I think you misunderstand what I meant by long-term. I think people aren't saying his struggles are long-term but that when he solves the problem or conquers something it's usually settled in the long-term or long-run (as opposed to a band aid). Example: No quad. In just a few months he didn't only have the quad, but he had a solid, money jump one. My hope is that Jason Brown will not only conquer his 3A struggles but end up with a text book 3A that will garner lots of +GOE. I think that's what he is working toward.

[SkateFiguring]

^^^ What I most question is calling Brown an all round skater or complete package at this point. He's almost all round for a Junior and hopefully will soon be. To be a Senior contender and considered a complete package, he not only needs at least a 3A but also improvement in skating skills and other components, both of which he is highly likely to acquire. He is young and has time. But he is not there yet. As for his excellent aspects, they tend to be more subjective and not absolutely overwhelming for every fan over his rivals.

My hope is that Jason Brown will not only conquer his 3A struggles but end up with a text book 3A that will garner lots of +GOE. I think that's what he is working toward.

I have a strong feeling you will not be disappointed.

[dorispulaski]

I'm surprised that you think "complete package" is a compliment.

I don't

It is what Dick & Peggy used to say of skaters whose technical content not quite first rate (but acceptable), or who tended to fall a lot, and whose artistry they were trying to convince the TV audience of. It was said of skaters like Sasha Cohen, who were very pretty, and had lovely extensions, but kind of crappy jump technique. Or Jill Trenary, same deal-when she was competing with Kristi Yamaguchi & Tonya Harding in 1989. Or Nancy Kerrigan.

Patrick is better than that. I hope that some day Jason will be better than "the whole package".

[SkateFiguring]

I'm surprised that you think "complete package" is a compliment.

I don't

It is what Dick & Peggy used to say of skaters whose technical content not quite first rate (but acceptable), or who tended to fall a lot, and whose artistry they were trying to convince the TV audience of. It was said of skaters like Sasha Cohen, who were very pretty, and had lovely extensions, but kind of crappy jump technique. Or Jill Trenary, same deal-when she was competing with Kristi Yamaguchi & Tonya Harding in 1989. Or Nancy Kerrigan.

Patrick is better than that. I hope that some day Jason will be better than "the whole package".

Good thing I don't listen to Dick and Peggy and American commentators in general. Saves me from .

[dorispulaski]

BTW, Evan Lysacek was always referred to as a "whole package" skater. Again, one can short of a six pack in the technical department (the quad)

They would also be selling Ashley Wagner as the whole package:
Pretty, with exaggerated claims of artistry
Two footed jumps (sometimes) Underrotated (sometimes) and flutzy (always)
And I don't particularly like her posture.

You see how this works.

Again, nothing one would ever say of Patrick these days.

So it looks like Canadians mean something different by whole package?

[SkateFiguring]

For me, the "complete package" applies to the all round best like Browning, Yagudin, Lambiel, Chan, Takahashi, et al. There are complete packages missing nerves/consistency such as Abbott and Sandhu. Some of my favorite skaters are great artists without the biggest jumps, like Sawyer, Beacom, Britten, etc. Some others may be even more beautiful to watch if they dumb down the technical contents further. They would made good show skaters but they don't get a chance without big medals. While I think Lysacek won his OGM fair and square, my problem with him is not about his on and off quad but lack of artistry and charisma. Kozuka and Oda are almost there, missing just a little to account for their relatively fewer wins.

On the Ladies side, you can't go wrong calling the likes of Kim and Assada complete packages.