Jason Brown's Future Prospects

chuckm said:

It seems as if you bring Pdiddy into every thread, regardless of what it's about (even into the JW Men SP thread). OF COURSE a Chan uber is going to compare every other skater to Chan and find him wanting. You made your point, such as it is. But the rest of us will take it from whence it comes and toss a bit of salt over the shoulder.

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I suggest you to bring evidence to support your charge whenever you want to make one. This is truly absurd! I take that you've never read through JW Men's SP thread. Otherwise, you'd have known how ridiculous your accusation is!

Spun Silver said:

But hey - I'm not going to spend my life dwelling on this.

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Me neither. If I've done what you or anyone said, I'll accept it. Otherwise, I will not be silent on false accusations on me.

chuckm said:

It seems as if you bring Pdiddy into every thread, regardless of what it's about (even into the JW Men SP thread). OF COURSE a Chan uber is going to compare every other skater to Chan and find him wanting. You made your point, such as it is. But the rest of us will take it from whence it comes and toss a bit of salt over the shoulder.

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I have refrained from commenting insofar. But I will not tolerate accusation and when you bring others into the fight unnecessarily.
Bluebonnet did not bring Patrick into this thread and at no time did Bluebonnet compare Patrick with Jason. It was SpunSilver who started calling us (yes, Patrick fans) Chan Patrol.
And when did anyone ever make comparison of Jason with Patrick? Did we ever say ... Patrick can do this, Jason cannot do that?
I don't want to pick a fight in Jasons's thread with due respect to this boy who has a lot of potential and who is still young. Don't make accusations and expect me to keep quiet. Let's not start a bitchy and catty fight over the internet just over 'cake without icing' comment. This thread asked a question and we gave our opinions. If you are not happy that we are commenting on Jason's thread, then so be it. You can have the whole thread to yourself.

spikydurian said:

I have refrained from commenting insofar. But I will not tolerate accusation and when you bring others into the fight unnecessarily.
Bluebonnet did not bring Patrick into this thread and at no time did Bluebonnet compare Patrick with Jason. It was SpunSilver who started calling us (yes, Patrick fans) Chan Patrol.
And when did anyone ever make comparison of Jason with Patrick? Did we ever say ... Patrick can do this, Jason cannot do that?
I don't want to pick a fight in Jasons's thread with due respect to this boy who has a lot of potential and who is still young. Don't make accusations and expect me to keep quiet. Let's not start a bitchy and catty fight over the internet just over 'cake without icing' comment. This thread asked a question and we gave our opinions. If you are not happy that we are commenting on Jason's thread, then so be it. You can have the whole thread to yourself.

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Again, it's a case of "talking over each other." (Doris I will use that phase FOREVER.)

-- In other threads, Jason Brown fans have cited Chan as a reason to be optimistic about his 3A prospects because of Chan's past struggles with the jump. These posts, I believe were well-meaning and did not have any malice.
-- The response was "Well Jason Brown isn't like Chan because Chan was winning world medals/national titles at the same age as Jason (16) and had a 3A." The struggles, as noted, was only last year while he was working on the quad.
-- I can see some posters taking those posts — and perhaps missing the first context I mention —  as 'Why must Jason Brown be compared with Patrick Chan all the time?" i.e. Why must Chan ALWAYS be brought into every discussion.
-- Such posts, I sense, are from long-standing frustration/perception that Chan fans(regardless of the reality) are not willing to accept that other posts that criticize their favorite skater. Hence, there's a bit of resentment that people can't share the virtues of other skaters with out Chan being brought to the discussion (even if it was in the right context).
-- Meanwhile, I think some Brown fans  are frustrated that their valid posts of Jason's virtues despite the 3A are being taking as "fans being delusional" or "can't face the truth." and feel they can't freely share those thoughts.
-- And some have felt that Jason Brown anti's = Patrick Chan fans.

All that have leaded up to where we are now.

I point this out because I feel what we have is a misunderstanding rather than that this-or-that poster is bad, being uber, or whatever. I have had constructive discussions about Brown with other posters, even those who disagree with me.

The reason I left the thread was because I felt that my contribution to the thread was over, not because I was forced out of it. I think this blow up is more fatigue than anything else and I hope we can get past this and continue this interesting discussion.

Srin Odessa said:

The main strength of the triple axel is that its GOE scales with the the Quad jumps (save the Quadruple Axel) GOE range. With a maximum of three GOE points, the already high base value of the triple axel jump is that much higher. Two good axels, with one in combination, can make a significant portion of a skater's technical score.

The forward edge allows a skater to enter the jump with a variety of entrances and build up GOE. The jump's spacing and entrance requirements are lenient enough to allow flexibility in where the jump is attempted, such as Patrick Chan initiating the triple axel in the width of the skating rink and in front of the judges during his Tango de Los Exiliados short program. In short, the jump enjoys some of the bonus a quad jump receives but doesn't have a quad's setup and spacing requirements.

Of course, the difficulty of the jump can vary person to person since the take-off edge is so different from the other jumps.

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Good explanation. I think this is exactly why Dai and Jeremy, who don't have a consistent quads but a amazingly good 3A, can still rack up the tech points. Those two have some of the best 3As in the business. They can easily get 10 points (or close to it) for the jump because of the amazing GOE they get.

Also in 2010, when Jeremy won his second title, he had that beautiful 3A-3T in his FS that was on the second half of his program. That sure racked up a ton of points!

Bluebonnet said:

I suggest you to bring evidence to support your charge whenever you want to make one. This is truly absurd! I take that you've never read through JW Men's SP thread. Otherwise, you'd have known how ridiculous your accusation is!

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Here's the evidence, from Junior Men SP thread in the World Junior Championship forum

In response to a comment about choreographer Lori Nicol:

Bluebonnet said:

Oh, my! I think Patrick Chan's Aranjeuz is the best of her work! And I love it to this point

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The Background


AFAIR, it was a suggestion that Han Yan go to Lori Nichol for choreo. (despite claims to the contrary, it was the Jr Men's SP thread, not the Brown vs Chan thread, and discussion of Han Yan, Farris, Brown, Bush, and so forth were all pertinent to the thread). I hoped Han Yan would not go to Nichol.

( and I did not say this at the time, but the last thing I'd like for Jason is for him to go to Lori Nichol, either. One of the best things about Jason is the quirky, interesting choreo that Rohene Ward did for his LP IMO)

BB then replied as above.

But this is not the Junior Worlds SP thread; this thread is about Jason, so I want to assert again, that I like Jason's choreo and would hate to see him go to anyone else at this time.

Here is te complete exchange.

Bluebonnet said:

Han Yan has the flare and potentially could develop a lot in artistic area. Maybe Lori Nichol could bring out the best of him next season. Looking forward to seeing it!

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Doris Pulaski said:

God forbid Lori Nichol...other than Carolina's SP, nothing she's done lately does anything for me.

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Bluebonnet said:

Oh, my! I think Patrick Chan's Aranjeuz is the best of her work! And I love it to this point

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chuckm said:

I thought Michelle Kwan's Aranjuez was far more expressive than Chan's. Chan is a great technician, but as a performer he doesn't touch the heart for anyone but his ubers.

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I leave it to the reader to decide who is posting in good faith in the spirit and flow of the conversation and who is trying to start a fight where none exists.

MM, I'm sure the last quote was not Bluebonnet's.

Oh goodness. Spun, Mrs. P - please let me know what I'm allowed to say when taking into consideration I deeply admire Chan.

fscric said:

MM, I'm sure the last quote was not Bluebonnet's.

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Argh! Just when I think I have all my ducks in a row I mess up and it all comes out the opposite of what I mean.

I will try again. In this matter Bluebonnet is completely in the clear and the folks who are picking on her are barking up the wrong tree. :yes:

I've been following this thread off & on, and just want to say that I don't understand the logic of a poster wanting to disrupt the praise for a skater that others like/enjoy/worship/et al. I mean I have my favorites too and will post in threads in their honor when I feel like it. What I won't do or try not to do is post in a thread that's clearly in honor of a skater that I don't particularly enjoy (neutrality is different though). To me that's trollish behavior. Let them have their favorites & praise them to the skies, it's not hurting anybody, especially seeing as how I do the same thing in honor of my favorite skaters.

Anyhow, Jmho. Carry on.

before I opened this thread again, I knew something about Patrick Chan would come up

Nadine said:

I've been following this thread off & on, and just want to say that I don't understand the logic of a poster wanting to disrupt the praise for a skater that others like/enjoy/worship/et al. I mean I have my favorites too and will post in threads in their honor when I feel like it. What I won't do or try not to do is post in a thread that's clearly in honor of a skater that I don't particularly enjoy (neutrality is different though). To me that's trollish behavior. Let them have their favorites & praise them to the skies, it's not hurting anybody, especially seeing as how I do the same thing in honor of my favorite skaters.

Anyhow, Jmho. Carry on.

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a) This thread was initially about whether Brown needs a 3A to be competitive. It's hardly trollish behaviour to answer that question.

b) Nor is it trollish behaviour to respond to positivity with the opposite. Postive comments can be just as provocative as negative ones.

Let's get back to the thread at hand, yes?

I wanted to note the following:

** Jason Brown at his 2010 U.S. Nationals (junior) program, which he won: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEh0bm-oRtM

** Jason Brown at 2012 JW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APF_0dzUmXs

While he had the raw talent and his well-known charisma/sparkle back in 2010, you can definitely see that since then he worked in several areas of his presentation, such as his edges and his ice coverage.

So it's not like he and his team was just sitting around waiting for that 3A to come together.

That bodes well for his future, me thinks because it seems that they have a good handle on his development and how to work within his current ability and parameters.

Mrs. P said:

While he had the raw talent and his well-known charisma/sparkle back in 2010, you can definitely see that since then he worked in several areas of his presentation, such as his edges and his ice coverage.

So it's not like he and his team was just sitting around waiting for that 3A to come together.

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Yes, I can see that a lot hard work has been done, but I feel that instead they should have been concentrating on him getting the triple axel. After that they could have worked to get all the other stuff better.

Jaana said:

Yes, I can see that a lot hard work has been done, but I feel that instead they should have been concentrating on him getting the triple axel. After that they could have worked to get all the other stuff better.

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My understanding is that they have been working on the 3A as well. But I get the sense that some of the limitations (i.e. slight injury, growth spurt, boot issues) made it hard to focus on the 3A. I'm saying that I think it was smart that they worked on other stuff since clearly the starts weren't aligned for him to do a lot of work on the 3A.

I think that now the season is over for him and those other issues seem to have been settled, I think he'll be able to focus more on it now.

Everyone keeps saying how Jason is young, but he really needs to get cracking on that 3a. By comparison, Farris was doing 3a in his competitive programs starting at age 14, and has been working on the 4t since he was 15, Han Yan just turned 15 and has been doing 3a and 4t all season, we saw Nam Nyguen successfully land 3a at JW and he is just 13. The standards are being raised, and with a jump like the 3a, it's expected it will take some time for a skater to get the jump really solid. Everything else Jason does is great, but he needs to be at least attempting 3a if he wants to remain competitive from here on in. It could take him a few years for it to become consistent in competition, and if he avoids trying it in competition, the jump will never materialize and he'll become the next Cassar or Dyer. Also as encouraging as his scores at junior worlds were, I honestly think in a senior competition D-10 would have been placed ahead of him (please don't bite my head of for saying this, i just really feel like he probably would have :shuffle:, and maybe with a bit of a margin even). Even if he's aiming for Pyeonchang, he's got to be getting that jump out in competition ASAP because who knows how long it will take to perfect to the point where he can rely on it at high-stakes events.

silverlake22 said:

Everyone keeps saying how Jason is young, but he really needs to get cracking on that 3a. By comparison, Farris was doing 3a in his competitive programs starting at age 14, and has been working on the 4t since he was 15, Han Yan just turned 15 and has been doing 3a and 4t all season, we saw Nam Nyguen successfully land 3a at JW and he is just 13. The standards are being raised, and with a jump like the 3a, it's expected it will take some time for a skater to get the jump really solid. Everything else Jason does is great, but he needs to be at least attempting 3a if he wants to remain competitive from here on in. It could take him a few years for it to become consistent in competition, and if he avoids trying it in competition, the jump will never materialize and he'll become the next Cassar or Dyer. Also as encouraging as his scores at junior worlds were, I honestly think in a senior competition D-10 would have been placed ahead of him (please don't bite my head of for saying this, i just really feel like he probably would have :shuffle:, and maybe with a bit of a margin even). Even if he's aiming for Pyeonchang, he's got to be getting that jump out in competition ASAP because who knows how long it will take to perfect to the point where he can rely on it at high-stakes events.

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Jason did attempt the jump last summer at the Glacier Falls comp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXUIONGou0Q#t=0m37s

As you can see it was very two-footed (I can't tell if it's UR/DG).

Unfortunately since it was a club competition, there are no protocols.

He got a DG for that attempt at Glacier Falls.

mskater93 said:

He got a DG for that attempt at Glacier Falls.

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Bummer. Well at least he tried. And hopefully he'll try again so he can respond properly to his critics.