The rule should simple be if these girls turn 15 before the Olympics or Worlds they should be able to compete none of this turning 15 before the previous July 1st ********. I mean they can compete on the Senior GP against the top Ladies at 14 so what's the difference?
Yes, I agree. Jumps alone won't always win, especially at the big events. All that other stuff counts too. The basic skating probably counts the most, so the kids who already excel at that as juniors will probably continue to be good and may get better as they get older.Originally Posted by Mrs. P
I didn't see a lot of hype for them in the US media. I bet there was more in Russian media. Slutskaya probably got the most, but more because she started making a splash in senior events at 15. And she's the one who went on to win the most senior medals.I didn't follow figure skating in the mid-1990s so closely, was there a lot of hype for these juniors? I don't recall. But I think that's mainly a reflection that there was no YouTube or skating board probably to keep track of them so closely.
Sokolova I think got more than her share of attention from US media based more on her looks (which, yes, includes things like posture and facial expression to the music that can legitimately affect the scores) than her skating talent. But she's the other one who ended up with a world medal, so good for her.
Whenever I see stories encouraging skating to allow the younger skaters into senior competitions, I think of something I read about American gymnast Kurt Thomas, who was our best male gymnasts in the days before age limits in gymnastics. Someone asked him if he had ever dated a gymnast, and he said he couldn't, because they were all little girls. The disparity of men and sprites made gymnastics hard for me to watch in those just-post-Nadia days.
I think that skating might be taken over by the jumping beans for awhile if junior-age girls were allowed to compete internationally as seniors, but as many of you have said, skating might suffer with the change. The really little girls often look programmed to me. They can't really convey the emotion in more complex music, so their best bet is to skate to pieces that are cute and pert, as they are. Say goodbye to Gershwin! Also, I fear that the demands of a longer program (and practicing for it) might wear out their growing bodies.
If people decide to let in the wunderkinds in, we'll all adjust, but I have to say that it will take a rare talent to outdo someone like Asada or Joannie for me. I will worry about their health and safety, too.
Oh brother here we go again.
The fixation on youth/children/Jonbenet Ramseys, so much so that a certain faction of the figure skating population wants to *lower* the age limit yet again.I say a definite N-O to that idea. >8^<
Let them mature, become soup, adjust to their new bodies, and gain experience as they transition into seniors. Take their time, not rush them.
In fact if it was up to me, I would *raise* the age limit to 16, as that's the age (leastways here in North America) that a girl officially becomes a woman by way of a "Coming Out Party/Debutante Ball".Also, that's the age here in the USA that a minor can legally become an adult by emancipation from one's parents.
That said I'm happy with the age limit set at 15 by July 1st of the previous year. Lol that's the age a young girl becomes a woman in South America (aka "quincenera"). (:^)
Anything below that age, NO. Also, I have to be honest I'm unhappy with the fact that juniors can also participate in the senior GP. Imho that's "double dipping" and something I do not approve of whatsoever.There has to be a firm line drawn between seniors versus juniors, and no one shall cross over that line. Period.
I absolutely, 100% agree.Oh brother here we go again.
The fixation on youth/children/Jonbenet Ramseys, so much so that a certain faction of the figure skating population wants to *lower* the age limit yet again.
Let them mature, become soup, adjust to their new bodies, and gain experience as they transition into seniors. Take their time, not rush them.
In fact if it was up to me, I would *raise* the age limit to 16, as that's the age (leastways here in North America) that a girl officially becomes a woman by way of a "Coming Out Party/Debutante Ball".
That said I'm happy with the age limit set at 15 by July 1st of the previous year. Lol that's the age a young girl becomes a woman in South America (aka "quincenera"). (:^)
Anything below that age, NO. Also, I have to be honest I'm unhappy with the fact that juniors can also participate in the senior GP. Imho that's "double dipping" and something I do not approve of whatsoever.
I think this is a bit of a low point for difficulty among the senior ladies, which is why the juniors seem so exciting right now. If this were 2009, for example, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. There also happens to be a lot of exciting juniors from one particular country that has obviously put a lot of effort into their program. That isn't normal either.
Also, skating isn't just about jumps. we all know that. The juniors might be eclipsing the seniors in jumps, but it's only in the jumps. The seniors are still superior in most of the other ways skating is measured.
Completely agree with you!Oh brother here we go again.
The fixation on youth/children/Jonbenet Ramseys, so much so that a certain faction of the figure skating population wants to *lower* the age limit yet again.
Let them mature, become soup, adjust to their new bodies, and gain experience as they transition into seniors. Take their time, not rush them.
In fact if it was up to me, I would *raise* the age limit to 16, as that's the age (leastways here in North America) that a girl officially becomes a woman by way of a "Coming Out Party/Debutante Ball".
That said I'm happy with the age limit set at 15 by July 1st of the previous year. Lol that's the age a young girl becomes a woman in South America (aka "quincenera"). (:^)
Anything below that age, NO. Also, I have to be honest I'm unhappy with the fact that juniors can also participate in the senior GP. Imho that's "double dipping" and something I do not approve of whatsoever.
And we think the 'audience' and fans are confused with scoring now.......add those little jumping beans in the mix and people will wonder why they're not winning everything with their killer jumps......or maybe they will and the rest of skating will look to be devalued. Just not a good idea, it's too much pressure on these young girls whose bodies are probably going to change and affect their ability. They need time to adjust (if they're affected by puberty) and I too worry about their health. I don't like when they peak at 13 or 14 and then have nothing to give after that because of all of the hype.
I agree with many of the points made so far. Juniors can jump and contort, but should stay as juniors. I would also raise the age to 16 for Srs. The current crop of Sr. Seniors is sort of weak - Mao, Carolina and Alissa are sort of the top and all have great qualities but aren't at the top of their game. Akiko and Ashley have great moment but we're still waiting for them to sustain. It does make the whole jr. level more interesting
While the older group of skaters have qualities that the younger group of juniors don't have (yet), the reverse is true as well--the younger skaters have the advantages in jumps that the older group doesn't have. I think it's embarrassing the jump level that the senior ladies are attempting, and can't wait until next season when I expect Adelina, Liza, Julia, and Gracie to rule the GP scene. It's about time.
Well, Adelina, Liza, Julia, Polina S, Polina K, are all eligible for the 2014 Olympics, so they're not going to be hurt by such an "injustice."Secondly, to prevent the kind of injustice that occurred to Mao Asada (my favourite skater) back in 2006. In 2006, she was quite simply the best skater in the world. She had beaten Cohen, Arakawa, and Slutskaya fair and square. Yet, she was not allowed to skate at the 2006 Olympics simply because she missed the cut off point by a measly 87 days. That was completely unfair and unjust. I've never regarded Arakawa as the true 2006 Olympic champion, because ultimately she did not beat the best skater in the world to truly earn the title. Moreover, I have my doubts as to whether Mao can win the 2014 Olympics. If that turns out to be the case, then when you look back on her career in coming years, I think 2006 will have represented her best chance of becoming Olympic champion and the fact that she was prevented from competing for the sake of a poultry 87 days is just cruel. These are the kind of injustices the current rule creates. And lone behold, she was able to compete in the senior GP that season, winning the GP final! Where is the logic in all that of denying her the opportunity then of going for the Olympic title?
Speaking of this injustice, I am skeptical of the example that you provide. You hit upon a pet peeve of mine--the myth that Mao Asada would've won the 2006 Olympics had she been allowed to compete. Shizuka totally earned that gold medal.
How does anyone know that a skater would've won a competition with as much pressure as the Olympics when they didn't compete there? I'm just not into awarding skaters imaginary medals for competitions they didn't attend and no one has any idea how they would've performed. Why not award Michelle Kwan the Olympic gold for 2006, had she been healthy and able to compete?
Last I checked, Mao Asada lost the 2006 Junior Worlds competition to Yu-Na Kim. You could argue that it was due to lack of motivation and desire to be there. But that doesn't explain why also in 2006, Mao had several FS meltdowns--2006 Skate America and the 2006 Grand Prix Final--proving she was not the "best skater in the world" in 2006 as you claim. She really struggled that year due to her growth spurt, she had major issues with her jumps, and it was already affecting her early in 2006.
You also don't know how Olympics pressure would have affected her in 2006. When Mao was in competitions with different types of pressure--defending the Junior World title in 2006, defending the GPF title in 2006, competing at her first senior Worlds in 2007--she did not win. There was zero guarantee that she would've won the Olympics had she been there. The achievement you note, winning the GP final, was done in the comfort and safety in Japan--something she wouldn't have had in Torino.
As for her beaten Shizuka, Irina, and Sasha fair and square...yeah, well she also lost to Irina once and lost to Fumie Suguri that season too! How do you know what would've happened at the Olympics? Funny how people fail to remember that when trotting out the whole, "Mao beat the Olympic medalists".
There were two very talented skaters who were left out of the 2006 Olympics, the other being Yu-Na Kim, who had returned to the juniors for a second year. I wasn't even following juniors back then, but it would have been terribly unjust to Yu-Na if they had made a special exception for Mao to let her into the Olympics, but not given Yu-Na the same chance. I don't know how Yu-Na would've placed, but the same applies to Mao, too--I have no idea how she would have done.
To circle back to the original topic, I think allowing young juniors to compete on the senior GP though not 4CCs/Euros/Worlds allows those who take that path to ease into the pressures of a partial senior season, without having to stress about senior Worlds at the end of it. But then, it puts juniors like Adelina in an impossible situation, where she was really in a lose-lose situation going back to junior worlds after a fairly successful debut on the senior GP. If she won again, no one would be impressed; if she didn't, it would put a dent (albeit minor) in her reputation to lose to another junior.
But whatever the benefits may be for individual skaters like Liza, Adelina, and Mao, who all went to the senior GP before they were full seniors and made their mark, it does make the ISU look inconsistent in their rules that a skater can compete for the GPF--a significant competition--and not Worlds or the Olympics. And it also got them into unnecessary amounts of trouble in the 2005-2006 Olympic year with Mao winning the GPF. So if they were to change that rule, I wouldn't mind.
Last edited by jaylee; 03-06-2012 at 11:42 PM.
Even if there's a rule that you can't go back to juniors after competing in seniors (and there is a proposal on the table in that direction), I do think that there is value in having some overlap in the age limits for junior and senior (and lower levels).
Different skaters start skating at different ages, learn at different rates, hit growth spurts at different ages. Not all skaters with the same birth year who will eventually reach elite skill levels will get there at the same time. I wouldn't want to see a rule that no one over 16, for example, is allowed to compete at any level below senior and those who haven't reached that level by that age should just give up and quit, or at least give up hopes of an international career.
And boys tend to mature later than girls on average, in most ways. So maybe the age limits should be different for boys than for girls.
But there are always individual exceptions.
And yes, I agree that is kind of silly to have different age limits for fall competitions and for ISU championships.
So I guess I would be in favor of something like the junior limits we have now, or maybe allow girls to compete junior if they're 12by July 1. And for senior competitions -- all senior competitions -- maybe 14 for girls and 15 for boys.
But keep that overlap period of 15-18/19 so who reach a high level early can move to seniors at the lower end of that age range and skaters who are later bloomers can stay junior until they're closer to finished blooming.
Last edited by gkelly; 03-06-2012 at 11:49 PM.
I completely agree with this. Nobody is saying scrap the age rules, just that they need to be amended at the margins to strike a better balance and prevent the kind of injustices that occurred to Mao Asada back in 2006 (which I referred to in post 1 above). I think the system that you have described and the rationale behind it, is a very good idea.
That's not the point. The point is that Mao Asada was unfairly deprived of the opportunity to compete. Had she been able to compete, in my view she would have stood an excellent chance of winning, because at that time, she had shown that she was the best skater in the world. For these reasons, there will always be a questionmark over Arakawa's Olympic win as one of her principal competitors was unfairly denied the opportunity to compete. OK, Mao may be my favourite skater and I may be a little biased in my views as to what happened to her, but I still think she was unfairly denied the opportunity to compete at the Olympics and that the rules are overly harsh in that respect. I mean, missing the cut off date by 87 days is a pretty silly reason for making a skater wait another 4 years to compete at the Olympics and for depriving her, of what in hindsight, may go down as being her best opportunity to win, given subsequent events.
I agree that the 2006 junior worlds performance was probably due to being deflated at having to go back down to juniors again (having just competed in and won the senior GP). I mean, it must be pretty demotivating having to compete at junior worlds, when you could be competing at the Olympics instead, and when you have just won the senior GP. It is for these same reasons that Tuktamysheva passed over the opportunity to compete at this years world juniors (as she wished to focus on being a full time senior next season, having just competed in the senior GP). The 2006 Skate America and 2006 GP final are not relevant as they took placed during the following season. Mao was not in the same kind of form during 2006/07, as she had been during 2005/06. She didn't really get it back together again until 2007/08, the season in which she won her first world title.
Slutskaya beat Asada at the Cup of China. However, that was Mao's very first senior competition. That takes some getting used to, and she finished a very good second. Moreover, she avenged that defeat by later beating Slutskaya in the GP final.
She finished 2nd to Suguri at Japanese nationals. However, Asada had only just competed in the GP final which took place between the 16th-18th December 2005. This was a competition that Suguri did not compete in. Japanese nationals took place just 1 week later between the 23rd - 25th December 2005. Asada was understandable tired (and still getting over the elation of having just won the senior GP final), and it was hardly surprising that she was not at her best and lost to a skater that was in a much better position to perform at their best. Its been said on a number of occasions that Japanese nationals come at a bad time for those skaters who make the GP final.
Last edited by Mao88; 03-07-2012 at 10:33 AM.
No, Asada had shown that she was one of the best skaters in the world, that she could hold her own with the best and sometimes beat them. She had not shown that she would always beat them every time they competed against each other.
If she had competed in Torino, that would have been one more opportunity for her to test herself against most of the other top skaters in the world. But we don't know what the outcome would have been.
Or two, if you also include Yuna Kim who was also too young. If it was "unfair" for Asada to be denied the opportunity, then it was unfair for Kim as well.For these reasons, there will always be a questionmark over Arakawa's Olympic win as one of her principal competitors was unfairly denied the opportunity to compete.
And why not include Michelle Kwan, who was injured and had to withdraw from the Olympics? Or Yoshie Onda, who had beaten Arakawa in the free program at Japanese Nationals?
Each competition is new. Skaters with better general skills and better consistency will win more often. But there are never any guarantees.
Not necessarily. Senior ladies have the artisty and the competition experience that the juniors dont which make watching senior women so much better.... it is argueable that the junior ladies have a higher jump content which make the standard of junior ladies skating that much higher seeing as Miki won 2011 worlds w/o a 3-3... and seeing how Carolina was able to win Europeans w/o a 3Lz -> it is their artistry and presence on the ice which takes them that much further.
What I saw in Julia at JW last week, her quality of skating could have put her on the world podium (scored 187 points, Yu na scored 194 in 2nd and Caroline 184 in 3rd). I think right now because with the absence of Yu Na being extremely fantastic and Mao having a rough season and Joannie not competing atm.. there really isn't anyone absolutely guaranteed a medal at worlds.
Not to mention that for alot of girls JW is their peak because their bodies change and they may never get back to their form of being able to do 3-3s, not saying that they can't bounce back (Caroline Zhang/Mirai Nagasu peaked in 2007 and have been struggling ever since, we've seen Mirai do 3-3s in practice at the olympics, and Caroline is going for 3lo-3lo this season)
It might look like the standard of junior ladies is higher now that the senior ladies because of the lack of the 3-3 in last years worlds and this years grand prix final, but from seeing Ashley Wagner's performance at 4cc, i can't think of a junior lady that could top that.
If the junior ladies were allowed to compete in senior competition instead of being barred from winning a world medal, we wouldn't have this problem. Thing is, we have alot of senior men who are still eligible for junior competition coming back to JW and then flying over to senior worlds afterwards, and with all that talent it would be definitely a sight to see 'junior ladies' be just as good if not better than the 'senior ladies'.
It is purely speculative as to who would have won. But, Asada would have been in with a very good chance of winning, if only she had been given the opportunity.
no matter how their jump contenst are
I still give my hats up to the senior skaters competing especially those in their late 20's like Kostner and Suzuki
barring what they have and without the injuries its still commendable at least they try their triple jumps
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