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Thread: Why is China not a power in all disciplines

  1. #16
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    ^


    only men they are in a drought, sure hey have the boring Bobrova/Soloviev
    but the upcomers and new seniors like Ilinykh/Katsalapov, Riazanova/Tkachenko and even the juniors turning soon seniors
    Sinitsina/Zhiganshin, Stepanova/Bukin, Monko/Kahaliavin , Yanovskaia/Mozgov etc. have big potential.

    In fact in the coming seasons, their ice dance field will be full house
    and will be dominating ice dance again in seniors.
    Last edited by sky_fly20; 03-09-2012 at 02:41 PM.

  2. #17
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    How is Plushenko an exemption? He is a Russian male figure skater (despite attempts to paint him as either a God or a Devil).



    Pretty much completely irrelevant...and that isn't even true anyway! Gachinski was on the podium at 2010 Junior Worlds and won many medals, including gold, at Junior Grand Prix competitions.
    But it's true that compared to what it was previously, Russia now has quite a depleted field and is no longer dominating men's skating like that used to. Yes Plushenko is still competing and has been for 15 years now. And Russia seems desperate to keep him eligible exactly because of their otherwise depleted men's field. As for dance being Russia's weakest descpline, well we know for sure whoever said that has not been paying any attention to the junior circuit.
    Last edited by shine; 03-09-2012 at 02:40 PM.

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    exactly.

    as for France they have good chance in the men, ice dance but weak in ladies and pairs
    see ? all countries have a depleted or not all disciplines they excel not just China

  4. #19
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    Well, I think it's mostly coaching. Before Mingzhu Li went back ladies was a deep hole where Liu Yan, an incredible slow skater went to Worlds and Olympics for a couple of years. In other countries, if a skater shows potential and needs better coaching, they pay to train in the US but the Chinese state would evaluate the cost effectiveness and never pay for such enormous costs.

    I don't think access to rinks is a problem. Northern China has a strong skating tradition. Southern China, not so much, but there are still very good rinks in almost every big city. But since there isn't enough high level coaches, kids don't take it that seriously.

  5. #20
    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    Well, I think it's mostly coaching. Before Mingzhu Li went back ladies was a deep hole where Liu Yan, an incredible slow skater went to Worlds and Olympics for a couple of years. In other countries, if a skater shows potential and needs better coaching, they pay to train in the US but the Chinese state would evaluate the cost effectiveness and never pay for such enormous costs.
    The distribution of wealth and rinks/coaches in China are mis-aligned. The Northeast (including Harbin) with the rinks/coaches isn't wealthy, whereas southern coastal regions like Shanghai/Zhejiang/Shenzhen don't have many rinks or good coaches. A beautiful new rink opened in Hangzhou, Zhejiang last year, a large, wealthy coastal city, to much excitement -- it might be the first year-round rink for that entire province. I read somewhere sales exceeded expectations in the first year, and it expects to turn a profit in two years! Chen Lu and her husband opened a rink in Shenzhen (near Hong Kong, the first city in China to open up economically) a few years ago and apparently there are some promising young skaters. I think it's just going to take time for the skating culture to develop in China so as to provide a talent/coaching base. It's kinda pathetic how the national championship consists of all the two dozen or so age eligible skaters/teams in each category. I'm not even sure there is any kind of qualifying process.

    Lulu and Mingzhu Li were both one-off special talents. I don't know how they managed to get to the top of the skating world with so little resources around them. But being a good skater doesn't automatically mean you can be a great coach (Lu Chen), and Mingzhu Li didn't work in China after Lulu until a couple years ago. It's obvious that she is a great coach -- she's single-handedly raising the standard/profile of Chinese ladies skating again. Who knows what Yan Liu or Binshu Xu could have achieved under her guidance, considering they both had all five triples with correct edges.
    Last edited by feraina; 03-09-2012 at 03:44 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    But it's true that compared to what it was previously, Russia now has quite a depleted field and is no longer dominating men's skating like that used to. Yes Plushenko is still competing and has been for 15 years now. And Russia seems desperate to keep him eligible exactly because of their otherwise depleted men's field. As for dance being Russia's weakest descpline, well we know for sure whoever said that has not been paying any attention to the junior circuit.
    Eh, Russia has more junior circuit success than Canada or the USA in ice dance between 2000 and 2010, but I'd assert that Canada and USA now have deeper fields.

  7. #22
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    I know that,
    I'm talking about the current status of FS disciplines in each countries
    PLUSH IS AMAZING AS OF EUROS AND ARTUR IS VERY GOOD! There's got to be a couple great Russian junior men I know nothing of. Maybe someone will mention who is in the men's pipeline. Nadine or seniorita seem up on all the RU up and comes.

    As for lack of rinks in China, they build a coal plant a day, they don't have skating megaplexes around this now richest country in the world? Heck, I wish I could go to one of the mega malls they have all over.

  8. #23
    Custom Title spikydurian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    I don't think access to rinks is a problem. Northern China has a strong skating tradition. Southern China, not so much, but there are still very good rinks in almost every big city. But since there isn't enough high level coaches, kids don't take it that seriously.
    Oh really? Sounds like fs is picking up in some parts of China then. Is fs lessons expensive there? I agree that with lack of affordable coaches, it is unlikely any talented kid will be spotted and encouraged to take up fs seriously. Maybe China can pay a highly sought after coach and choreographer from USA, Canada, Europe and Russia to train the coaches? They can learn from countries with a rich tradition in skating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Eh, Russia has more junior circuit success than Canada or the USA in ice dance between 2000 and 2010, but I'd assert that Canada and USA now have deeper fields.
    Russia has been unable to translate their top junior teams to Senior success in the Ice Dancing discipline of late too.

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    FS isn't really that popular in China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post
    Oh really? Sounds like fs is picking up in some parts of China then. Is fs lessons expensive there? I agree that with lack of affordable coaches, it is unlikely any talented kid will be spotted and encouraged to take up fs seriously. Maybe China can pay a highly sought after coach and choreographer from USA, Canada, Europe
    and Russia to train the coaches? They can learn from countries with a rich tradition in skating.
    I think figure skating for a long time to come will be primarily a northern-based sport as it's always been. And definitely at the competitive rather than recreational level. Yes, lessons are relatively expensive relative to local incomes. Accessing ice is not easy. There is a shortage of full size ice rinks. Most rinks are smaller and in shopping malls with shopping mall hours, and are not conducive to meaningful training. Beijing, the country capital and official location of the national team, has similar climatic conditions to Chicago, USA (drier though). With an urban population 5-6 times that of Chicago, you can count the number of full sheets of year-round indoor ice all on one hand, and at least 2 of those sheets are essentially restricted to a small number of designated skaters/coaches for national elite team training. Compare that with...innumerable rinks are in greater metro Chicago that are available to general public or at least skating club members for training sessions.

    IMO, one of the biggest problems after ice access is lack of good basic skills/elementary level coaches as well as mid-level and elite singles coaches. I've watched lower level sessions where you have skaters working on anything from crossovers to basic spins and single jumps, and a critical mass of decent coaches that can nip bad habits in the bud, just isn't there yet. At the higher level of skating, there is a lack of good native choreography and packaging that works with international judges. Only the skaters/teams that have made a splash internationally have possible access to top level international choreo, which tends to make the difference between the Chinese that win intl medals vs the also-rans. Yes, the Chinese could learn a lot from importing some talent from abroad, but so far there is a reluctance to do that for levels under elite or nearly-elite skaters. It also may be an issue of finding willing imported talent to come to China for a meaningful period of time (or semi-permanently). There are some quality of life issues that most foreigners would not be willing to put up with for more than a couple of years or so, even with a sweetened financial pot. Of course you can send skaters abroad and that has been done for short periods of time---but that doesn't build up the country's innate skating capacity.

    While there may be a problem of money at the individual skater/family level, there shouldn't be a problem of money at the institutional level--unlike some countries, there is plenty of money sloshing around this economy--not just government, but private--that could be tapped to build and operate rinks, find (even import) coaches and pay for improvements in coaching skills (sending them abroad for professional skills development), and improve access to a wider group of youngsters. But it takes an entity to pull it all together, tap into resources and organize everything. Logically that would be the National Skating Federation, but no indication that they are empowered to do so, or willing to do so even if empowered, or have the internal talent/management to do so even if empowered and willing.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    FS isn't really that popular in China.
    Across the overall population and land mass of China, no, figure skating is not that popular. But in a country of 1.4 billion people, even 1% serious interest level (fans, spectators, etc.) is 14 million people! That's equivalent to 40% of entire population of Canada!
    Last edited by bigsisjiejie; 03-10-2012 at 12:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Across the overall population and land mass of China, no, figure skating is not that popular. But in a country of 1.4 billion people, even 1% serious interest level (fans, spectators, etc.) is 14 million people! That's equivalent to 40% of entire population of Canada!
    This is bad math and bad logic. By your logic, you can apply 1% to the total population in India for almost everything .... The most logic way is to apply 1% to people in the northern part who are exposed to skating.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    This is bad math and bad logic. By your logic, you can apply 1% to the total population in India for almost everything .... The most logic way is to apply 1% to people in the northern part who are exposed to skating.
    Interesting point. By the way, someone pointed out to me a few years ago that India, with all its financial and intellectual potential, has never won a gold medal in the Olympics, summer or winter, for an individual sport. Which is to say that sheer numbers might not necessarily be the way to figure this out.

  14. #29
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Hey, didn't a Chinese boy just win Jr Worlds? Han Yan(did I forget the right name). He's reminding me of Chan with deep knees. Bet he watches Pat's videos. Who knows how far he goes?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Hey, didn't a Chinese boy just win Jr Worlds? Han Yan(did I forget the right name). He's reminding me of Chan with deep knees. Bet he watches Pat's videos. Who knows how far he goes?
    Yes, he has great skating skills. And he said he really admires Chan. The federation will probably send him to a foreign choreographer for next season, and while he doesn't have much say over whom, he said he hoped that it would be Lori Nichols.

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