Should Gracie or Caroline or Agnes or Mirai replace Alissa for Worlds?

**Précision** · 03-14-2012, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Mathman

What Doris said!!!

Thank you for joining us, Precision. Post often, post long!

Thank you both! I'm glad there is interest towards synchro, I'm sure there will little "synchro-propaganda" in my writings sometimes.

I just think it deserves to be considered as a same kind of figure skating disipline as the other four. Just little younger and still developing.

Anyways, back to te topic title: I think there is no reason to send Gold or Zhang to Worlds, Czisny has earned her spot and to me is a real medal contender which the other two would not be.

**R.D.** · 03-14-2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mathman

If he had fully rotated the jump before falling he would have got 6.0 base value.

After deduction for GOE

and fall penalty he would end up with 2.0 points for the element.

Ok, here we go. He's still getting points (i.e. being rewarded) for a completely failed element. A fall is a fall, shouldn't matter whether he rotated in the air once or 5 times...

This is the change I want to see, using the 3Z jump as an example:

3Z- successful - 7

3Z - fall/hand(s) down - 0

3Z - 2-foot/stepout - 3.5

3Z - doubled - 2

3Z - singled - 0.5

Probably not a whole lot different from the current Cop as far as point values go, but it's a heck of a lot simpler IMHO. Could probably play around with the numbers a bit as well.

_____

Now, someone asked about varying degrees of a successful jump (the current role the Grade of Execution plays). My response to that may not be popular, but here it is: I'm going to invoke the basketball analogy again. You have two players that each take one shot. Assume both shots are taken within the 3-pt line and from the same distance, say 18 ft. One of the players has an open look at the basket. He takes the shot and hits. The other player is being double-teamed and the shot clock is running out. He is forced to throw up a very difficult fadeaway jumper, but by some miracle, the ball bounces on the rim and then falls into the hoop. Which shot is worth more?

That's right, even though the shots had varying degrees of difficulty, they both count as 2 points.

A jump is a jump is a jump. A 3Z is worth 7 pts no matter what.

Now, if you wanted to award/encourage more difficult entries into jumps, there might be ways to implement that, possibly by treating the entry into the jump as a separate element altogether...but the entire point is this: the less subjectivity in the system, the better.

**R.D.** · 03-14-2012, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Skater Boy

I think we lost our way on this thread. I am waiting with wonderment if Alyssa will cry an injury or what.

I think we would have heard about such an injury by now...but I guess you never know.

I assume she's going to go, and frankly I hope she goes. She's the best we've got.

**Mathman** · 03-14-2012, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by R.D.

Ok, here we go. He's still getting points (i.e. being rewarded) for a completely failed element. A fall is a fall, shouldn't matter whether he rotated in the air once or 5 times...

This is the change I want to see, using the 3Z jump as an example:

3Z- successful - 7...

I think the problem is this. In basketball, it is obvious what it means for the ball to go through the hoop.

In skating it is not so obvious whether a skater has done a triple Lutz or not. If a skater's take-off edge is wobbly, then you could say, nope, that's not a Lutz, that's a flip. Check out Kurt Browning's jump in the video that gkelly posted. Is it a flip? Is it a Lutz? None of the above?

Under current rules, if you rotate 990 degrees (expecting 1080), then you have still done a triple Lutz, but if you rotate only 989 degrees, then you have done -- well, not a double Lutz (that would be 720 degrees), but a half-way sort of triple Lutz.

If the skater stumbles and bumbles on the landing but doesn't quite fall, does that satisfy the definition for a successful jump, which includes "landing on a running outside edge on the opposite foot from the take-off foot"?

(And what if your favorite skater falls but has a cool costume?

)

**PolymerBob** · 03-14-2012, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by R.D.

I think we would have heard about such an injury by now...but I guess you never know.

I assume she's going to go, and frankly I hope she goes. She's the best we've got.

There might be an injury involved. If Alissa doesn't go, that leaves the question of who goes in her place. Historically, Caroline seems to do better in front of international judges than national ones, and she is on a definite upward trend.

**Mathman** · 03-14-2012, 09:20 PM

^ If Alissa withdraws with an injury, Agnes Zadwadski goes. This was already decided and publicly announced two months ago.

**skateluvr** · 03-14-2012, 10:27 PM

Agnes does not get much love. What do people see in her skating (or not) that they dislike?

**lcd** · 03-14-2012, 10:32 PM

Agreed. Is this the Gracie Gold hype machine raising more reasons to have too high expectations next year? Back after nationals the word was she was telling anyone who would listen that she "coulda' gone to Four Continents"

Her time will come. Please.

**R.D.** · 03-15-2012, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Mathman

^ If Alissa withdraws with an injury, Agnes Zadwadski(sic) goes. This was already decided and publicly announced two months ago.

....which is all the reason I REALLY hope Czisny is able to make it! Not only make it, but give it her best effort, of course.

**Trewyn** · 03-15-2012, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by lcd

Agreed. Is this the Gracie Gold hype machine raising more reasons to have too high expectations next year? Back after nationals the word was she was telling anyone who would listen that she "coulda' gone to Four Continents"

Her time will come. Please.

Really? Gracie thought she should have gotten a 4CC ticket?? Seriously. She could have opted to skate in seniors and *earn* her ticket. She didn't. Jr Worlds was perfect as her first big international competition! You're right, her time will come. She'll be able to prove that as a senior next year.As nice as it sounds to see Gracie as the solution to any US Ladies problem, I really think it's pretty irrelevant because she skated as a Junior at Nats. The story would have been entirely different if she skated Seniors this year and placed.

**mskater93** · 03-15-2012, 09:20 AM

^^^
This is NOT true about Gracie. I don't know where THIS rumor got started that "once she got home she told anyone who would listen she 'coulda gone' to 4CC". That's totally not what happened. Gracie and her team were told she would be considered for Senior International events this season depending on the outcome of Senior Ladies (ie if it was a splat fest and there was low quality skating, they would consider it) and that they wouldn't immediately name her to the JW team until Senior Ladies was over. From the moment she won Junior Ladies, her team began preparing mentally (and then in practice) to meet the RWB's (and were actually looking forward to that from comments made in the press and around the rink). The comment that "All age eligible ladies will be considered for all events" was tweeted by the President of USFS, so maybe someone has turned *THAT* tweet around to make it seem as if Gracie were full of herself.

Of all the talented skaters I've been around at my rinks over the years, Gracie is one of the LEAST likely to behave like that.