Should Gracie or Caroline or Agnes or Mirai replace Alissa for Worlds?

skateluvr · Mar 11, 2012

I think Ryan is such a beloved guy in USFSA. It did seem they wanted him to win. 11 trips to seniors was it? I can't recall. But it seemed it was a "we finally have to and want to reward you." I never thought he would repeat even if he had stayed anoter season. It was a gift.

Some people do not feel Kwan truly deserved the flood of 6.0s. Though I generally loved her, I agree they overdid it. Many should have been 5.9s. I wonder always if Sasha had been marked fairly in her SP at SLC if she would have the confidence in herself she should have had. I am happy with the ladies results but would not have been shocked or too upset to see young Sasha take the bronze or silver. I think the love fest for Kwan at Nationals really rattled her. Kwan's utter confidence and the feedback from all those who loved her humility when she lost in Nagano changed everything. There was Michelle, then everyone else. Popularity judging. I wonder how long before US has a consistent competitor in females who has "the total package" lol, that they just go crazy for. Will Gracie be the next?

Under CoP, Slutskaya would rarely have beaten Kwan, but Sasha would have.

I wonder how she (Sasha) would have competed had she gotten a medal at those Olympics. It is still hard to see Sasha make those mistakes over and over when she was so special in every way.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 11, 2012

skateluvr said:
Under CoP, Slutskaya would rarely have beaten Kwan, but Sasha would have.

Slutskaya beat Cohen regularly under COP so I don't agree with the logic that Cohen was the best of the 3 under COP. Kwan was not a COP skater, so I agree Cohen would have fared better. But still, anytime they went head-to-head at Nationals it was Cohen who flinched so I don't think the judges would have put her ahead of a clean Kwan with 6 or 7 triples.

But I agree that Cohen was overmarked at SLC. She had a shaky 2A, was slow, and really had no edges. In retrospect, I see that Sarah was a better skater so I would have probably had her and Maria ahead of Cohen as well. It might have helped Sasha to have not been so close to gold so that missed opportunity hadn't been on her mind her entire career.

b-man · Mar 11, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
I think Bradley's victory was because they DID prejudge the competition, actually.

This is off topic, but, Abbott came into the competition as a 2 time champion, Bradley had only one podium in 10 years So are you saying the judges prejudged that Bradley would have the skate of his life and Abbott would have a flawed freeskate??????? Abbott had a flawed FS, was not held up, and the judges scored what happed on the ice.

Violet Bliss · Mar 11, 2012

I think Bradley received an even greater gift from the Tech Panel than the judges. He could hardly medal if the international standard were applied.

brightphoton · Mar 11, 2012

skateflower said:
Phil Hersh tweets, wow, just wow. Of course, he blames USFS for Alissa's disasterous outing.

Might as well be the evil USFS's fault. During interviews, Alissa never takes responsibility for her own performances. It's always someone else's fault, who cares about 3 spots, what do you expect her to do on the the ice, it's not her problem, etc.

Mathman · Mar 11, 2012

drivingmissdaisy said:
But I agree that Cohen was overmarked at SLC. She had a shaky 2A, was slow, and really had no edges. In retrospect, I see that Sarah was a better skater so I would have probably had her and Maria ahead of Cohen as well.

The three were so different it is hard to decide. Sasha's double Axel wasn't bad, and although she did have a flutz it wasn't nearly as atrocious as Sarah's (though Sarah had better speed). Sasha's program was filled with choreographic delights, such as a Charlotte, a stag jump, and a split jump, in addition to her two spirals, while Sarah's and Maria's were nothing special, IMHO.

Maria, on the other hand, though without error and beautiful as always, could not properly get down in her knees and skated kind of stiff-legged.

johnny 80 · Mar 11, 2012

brightphoton said:
Might as well be the evil USFS's fault. During interviews, Alissa never takes responsibility for her own performances. It's always someone else's fault, who cares about 3 spots, what do you expect her to do on the the ice, it's not her problem, etc.

USFS is wise enough not to send Her to 4CC's.. but, she or her coaches never took lessons from last year's 4CC's.

Now international judges know her conditions even before Worlds.

That's not good.

Mathman · Mar 11, 2012

SkateFiguring said:
I think Bradley received an even greater gift from the Tech Panel than the judges. He could hardly medal if the international standard were applied.

I think that Bradley benefitted from being way out in front after the short program. Maybe there was a tendency on the part of the tech panel and judges to say, well, he is going to win anyway, we don't want to low-ball the new U.S. champion too badly.

As it was, Bradley was placed only fourth in the LP behind Dornbush, Minor and Rippon.

Plus, the CoP gives big points for attempting quads and triple Axels, successful or not.

brightphoton said:
Alissa never takes responsibility for her own performances. It's always someone else's fault, who cares about 3 spots, what do you expect her to do on the the ice, it's not her problem, etc.

Utterly untrue.

brightphoton · Mar 11, 2012

Utterly true.

Spun Silver · Mar 11, 2012

Your evidence? That's quite a moral judgment.

ImaginaryPogue · Mar 11, 2012

b-man said:
This is off topic, but, Abbott came into the competition as a 2 time champion, Bradley had only one podium in 10 years So are you saying the judges prejudged that Bradley would have the skate of his life and Abbott would have a flawed freeskate??????? Abbott had a flawed FS, was not held up, and the judges scored what happed on the ice.

Both his quads were UR'ed. Neither were called as such by the tech panel. His PCS were ridiculous and hugely inflated. I'm saying that Abbott wasn't the desired face of men's figure skating whereas Bradley was, so they went out of their way to be kind.

Mathman · Mar 11, 2012

brightphoton said:
Utterly true.

I assume, then, that you are going to post links to interviews where Czisny said,

It's someone else's fault.

Who cares about 3 spots?

What do you expect me to do on the the ice?

it's not my problem.

No? I didn't think so. :disagree:

pangtongfan · Mar 11, 2012

skateluvr said:
Under CoP, Slutskaya would rarely have beaten Kwan, but Sasha would have.

I wonder how she (Sasha) would have competed had she gotten a medal at those Olympics. It is still hard to see Sasha make those mistakes over and over when she was so special in every way.

I agree Sasha would have beaten Kwan much more often under COP than 6.0. However still not all the time. Sasha did get lucky to mostly face the 2003-2006 at the tail end of her career, though still excellent of course, rather than the dominant Kwan of 1996-2001. However Sasha would still sabatoge herself with enough silly mistakes and untimely falls to lose to Kwan, which is why even under 6.0 she lost all of 2 times to Kwan in the period I mentioned when she was capable of far more than that.

I totally disagree on Slutskaya. You might not like her, but in fact Slutskaya would have been far more dominant and won far more titles under COP. Her success rate vs Kwan (which was already much higher than anyone else save Tara Lipinski) would have gone well up, and her success rate vs Cohen would have still atleast as high as it already was. COP rules and elements was perfectly suited to her, like it was to Cohen as well, and the only times she would probably ever lose under it would be when she bombed badly like in Turin.

Cohen in 2002 wasnt that good a skater yet, and had the Olympics not been in the U.S she would have finished 5th behind Suguri who at that point was a better skater and who did a cleaner LP. It is no coincidence the Olympics in SLC was the only time that season she beat Fumie. I chuckle at any Americans who suggest she was robbed of a medal that year. Where her skating was at that point she would have had to do a clean LP to have any argument (or chance) for a possible medal.

brightphoton · Mar 12, 2012

No, those interviews are lost to the internet. That said, you shouldn't pretend Czisny has ever taken responsibility for her own skating. Any Czisny fan will attest to the fact that after her disastrous 2009 World and being interviewed on how she felt that she lost the 3 spots, she said, "No, it was out of my control. Besides, I didn't *lose* 3 spots. The US had 2 spots and I kept them." Interview after subpar performance 2010 4CC's? "I'm tired. It's too close after Nationals."

It's never her fault, so I'm sure she appreciates Phil Hersh casting her as a martyr.

Compare that to Ashley Wagner's attitude.
"I think it's crucial we gain back three spots at worlds this season," she said. "I was on the [2008] team that lost the spot. I really would like to be on the team that gains that spot back. I think it would be nice to tie that back up and correct my mistakes.

That is a distinctive difference. I hope your blind love for Czisny doesn't hold you back from seeing that.

Violet Bliss · Mar 12, 2012

Mathman said:
Plus, the CoP gives big points for attempting quads and triple Axels, successful or not.

No, CoP gives points according to the degree of success of these and other jumps. One of Abbott's biggest problems at The Hague was the downgrade (<<)of his SP 4T. He would have gained a few more points if he had rotated the quad before falling. It would at least be a quad rather than an over rotated 3T that he fell on.

This will be a big problem and the most important deciding factor at Worlds too. He should not attempt a quad if he can't fully rotate it.

R.D. · Mar 12, 2012

Can the Kwan/Cohen/SLC stuff continue in another thread?

Anyway, I'm going to go with BP here as it strikes me that I don't ever remember Czisny (circa 2009) saying/admitting "It's my fault that I messed up and we have 2 Oly spots." But that's something that takes some guts to come out and say. I mean, I must say my respect for Wagner went up a bit when she said that quote about wanting to correct her past mistakes. Hopefully she can do that successfully...and Czisny too, for that matter.

Skater Boy · Mar 12, 2012

Alyssa at least on her placements at Nats earned the right according to the US rules to go to Nats. Zhang though interestingly has been very consistent at Nats and 4CCCs. Truth being told who knows what will happen o the day of the world's competiton. Alyssa could be first or 13th - though it appears the judges are giving her the pcs now which will hold her up (just to get a rise out of Patrick haters -lol - yes folks pcs hold up other skaters - right or wrong.

R.D. · Mar 12, 2012

Interview after subpar performance 2010 4CC's? "I'm tired. It's too close after Nationals."

And she expected to get 4CCs THIS year after ANOTHER sub-par performance at last year's 4CC? And Hersh taking USFS to task for not selecting her for it, even after the egg-laying she did at Challenge Cup?

Anyway, Worlds is still to come. Czisny can still redeem herself by a podium finish, or even top 6- and then all this discussion will be moot. And if she's looking to retire soon, what better way to go out?

Of course, if she blows it again, she has only herself to blame...and as for USFS, it could be argued that they brought it on themselves in a way.

Violet Bliss · Mar 12, 2012

I can't say I am well informed of Czisny's interviews. Wagner's statement is consistent with her take charge confident attitude this season. However, unlike her personal determination to win the US Nationals, this declared goal requires team effort and is still to unfold and be fulfilled. Czisny's quoted statements, OTOH, were responses to questions that put her on the defensive after the events when she was already feeling down on herself. I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that she didn't care or that she excused herself completely.

sky_fly20 · Mar 12, 2012

very fickle how people are now like torching Alissa to the fire
when praises were given to her for her GP performance, now that Ashley is the new star
they have no problem now with ditching Alissa, Alissa is a hit or miss, you should know that by now already. set your expectations from her but not too much.

as for Abbott, he is always inconsistent

Should Gracie or Caroline or Agnes or Mirai replace Alissa for Worlds?

skateluvr

drivingmissdaisy

b-man

Violet Bliss

brightphoton

Mathman

johnny 80

Match Penalty

Mathman

brightphoton

Spun Silver

ImaginaryPogue

Mathman

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

brightphoton

Violet Bliss

R.D.

Skater Boy

R.D.

Violet Bliss

sky_fly20

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