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Thread: Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz?

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    Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz?

    Before seeing Caro skate today, I was adamant in my belief that a ladies world champ should have a triple lutz. Almost every (if not every) world medalist since 1991 has completed a lutz jump in the short and/or long programs. But her program today was marvelous, undoubtably worthy of a 132, and I would be happy to see a skate like that win a world title. She has been so great at rebuilding her jumps after her injury that they are more consistent than ever. And, to me, doing 2 3Fs is not much different than doing a 3F and a 3 flutz, which is what a lot of the ladies have done in the past to earn their world medals.

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    Are you asking "should"? Clearly, this upcoming World championships for the ladies will NOT require a triple Lutz to be competitive. The judges are obviously going to give the title to Carolina--barring some catastrophic meltdown.

    If she manages two 3Flips and a 2A+3T combo I won't begrudge her the title. Still, it's a let down from previous years. Gone are the days when Lutz 3/3's and 3A's were shown by the top senior ladies--at least for now. Nevertheless, I personally would rather see Carolina skate cleanly and beautifully rather than fall attempting a triple Lutz. The disappointment is on the ladies' field in general and not against Carolina in particular.

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    There's more to skating than just one jump. And how many of those skaters with "triple lutzs" were doing really triple flutzes? Kostner's skating is truly stunning (its not like Lyseck who was no great artist IMO just decent on everything). Her skating skills, flow, speed across the ice are amazing. I am glad she's upgraded her content though.

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    No. Howwever, the scoring system should award a skater with a full set of triples with bonus points. It also should increase the gap between the hard and simple triples.

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    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateflower View Post
    No. Howwever, the scoring system should award a skater with a full set of triples with bonus points. It also should increase the gap between the hard and simple triples.
    Now THIS I do agree with. I do feel a bit MEH that its okay for Kim to not have a loop or Ando no flip, but the world is ending because Kostner doesn't have a lutz.

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    I agree that the field is weak and that almost none of the ladies have both a proper lutz and a proper flip. But a score of 132 in the LP would be strong in any field. I still think they need to somehow incentivize 3/3's because a 2A/3T combo with a solo 3F will usually outscore a 3F/3T combo with a solo 2A because of the increased likelihood of getting +GOE on an easier combo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Now THIS I do agree with. I do feel a bit MEH that its okay for Kim to not have a loop or Ando no flip, but the world is ending because Kostner doesn't have a lutz.
    I think the criticism is a bit fair, if only because the lutz has been THE jump that has distinguished the top ladies from the next tier. But I do like that the judging system allows you to omit your weak elements and still do well, because many skaters are excelling in other areas that they hadn't before. For example, the women, on average, do far more difficult spins than they did before COP. Someone like Alissa gets rewarded for her incredible spins, whereas someone like Ruh hardly got any benefit because her marks were set by her less difficult jump content, which unfortunately prevented her from getting the presentation marks that she deserved.

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    Good points. Carolina's skate was fantastic, and certainly worthy of the podium at worlds. I like to imagine a scenario in which all the top competitors skate cleanly and figure out who would come out on top. We have the American girls, the Japanese girls, Kostner, and, arguably, the Russian girls. (Am I forgetting anyone?) I think Kostner and Asada would fight for gold, with the other girls clawing for the bronze. I'd give the edge to Czisny because the international judges seem to like her. Personally, I'd prefer Suzuki.

    Also, how many of these top girls attempt a full set of "true edge" triples? So it looks like the Russian girls are the only ones with full sets. I highly doubt we'll see a Russian woman on the top of the worlds podium this year, but the babies, Koro, and Shelepen all have potential.
    Wagner flutzes, though she got a pass from the 4CC panel.
    Czisny lips.
    Asada flutzes.
    Suzuki sometimes she gets edge calls, sometimes she does not.
    Murakami flutzes.
    Shelepen: full set!
    Korobeynikova: full set!
    Leonova: full set; sometimes gets edge calls.
    Kostner: no lutz this season.

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    Are you asking in general or specifically about Ms. Kostner?

    My opinion in general is that I don't think any single element should be a requirement for winning. Especially elements toward the top of the current difficulty scale.

    Right now the only jump that is officially required at the senior level is a double (or triple) axel in the short program. Beyond that, it's all required categories of elements with room for variation in which each skater can show his or her own strengths within the category. Another possibility would be to require specific elements that are reasonable minimum expectations of all skaters competing under those rules (e.g., senior ladies). But it makes no sense to me to choose an element that only a minority of the skaters at that level can do and say "If you don't have this specific element, then you're not allowed to win, even if you can more different kinds of elements and some difficult ones that no one else can do, and you skate better than your competitors as well."

    Some otherwise excellent skaters have a specific element or kind of element that they just can't do, ever or for an extended but temporary period, for one reason or another -- technique issues, body type, injuries, mental block, whatever.

    And even skaters who can do all the expected elements might miss any of them in any given competition. If you make element Z the litmus test, lack of which disqualifies a skater from winning, then what happens if the best skater completes everything except Z, and some other skater does a very nice Z but misses X and Y? All else being equal, for theoretical purposes, why should success on the prescribed element outweigh a greater number of failures? All else not being equal, as is always the case in real life, why not weigh all the good and not-so-good aspects of each performance instead of relying on a single deciding factor?

    If the element is difficult enough and valued commensurately with its difficulty, then any skater who can complete it will have an advantage over those who can't. But that doesn't mean that those who can't or just don't do that particular element for one reason or another might not be the best overall that day.

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    Ladies figure skating has really deteriorated.. last year, there were talks about whether world champion need triple -triple( a harder triple-triple), and then this year, we're talking about whether they need triple lutz.......
    I wonder what we're going to talk about next year..without junior ladies upping the tech content of the ladies field.

    Look at men's, since Chan has set the standard so high(aiming for two 4-3s, a quad, and triple axels in sp and fp), everybody is trying to up the content, otherwise, they cannot win.
    However, in ladies, everybody is trying to land easier jumps, so that they can win...(though there are exceptions, that's the general trend.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by loren View Post
    Ladies figure skating has really deteriorated.. last year, there were talks about whether world champion need triple -triple( a harder triple-triple), and then this year, we're talking about whether they need triple lutz.......
    I wonder what we're going to talk about next year..without junior ladies upping the tech content of the ladies field.

    Look at men's, since Chan has set the standard so high(aiming for two 4-3s, a quad, and triple axels in sp and fp), everybody is trying to up the content, otherwise, they cannot win.
    However, in ladies, everybody is trying to land easier jumps, so that they can win...(though there are exceptions, that's the general trend.)
    Yes mens is so great with Chan falling all over the ice and still winning every event by 30 points, while most of the other men stumble around trying harder jumps than they can do in many cases, and a 30 year old Plushenko wins Europeans by an overwhelming margin. Give me the ladies and the variety of interesting skaters of all ages, storylines, and variety of styles anyday.

    I am glad the mens singles discipline is still there as these days they give a perfect opportunity for a meal or social break during an event, and then return for the real skating and actual competition in the other 3 disciplines.

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    Last year we had a champion without a flip, the year before a champion without a salchow, in 2009 a champion without a loop and the list goes on and on...why the problem presents only know with carolina who is not doing the lutz? It's ridicolous...There's much more than a jump in figure skating..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    Last year we had a champion without a flip, the year before a champion without a salchow, in 2009 a champion without a loop and the list goes on and on...why the problem presents only know with carolina who is not doing the lutz? It's ridicolous...There's much more than a jump in figure skating..
    Ando, I'm not sure, however, the one without salchow, and the other without loop, had a harder element to make up for, AND the artistry.

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    I believe the athletes should get better every year. I know the new system aloud certain things, but that's why skating is in the trouble!!! I mean really, Evan won Olympics without a quad! Common! I want the top ladies and top men to be able to complete everything! I want it all! By the way, this year I love Carolina's skating. I think she is the best we have at this moment. But I also adore Ashley's! There you have an athlete who wants it all!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    Last year we had a champion without a flip, the year before a champion without a salchow, in 2009 a champion without a loop and the list goes on and on...why the problem presents only know with carolina who is not doing the lutz? It's ridicolous...There's much more than a jump in figure skating..
    I know, figure skating is a very rare "sport" in which different standards apply to men and women, well ladies, and in which old ladies can use their age as an excuse for not taking risks and automatically get rewarded with more points (PCS). Young girls never get high PCS no matter how musical (IN) or charismatic (PE) they are or how intelligently their programs are choreographed (CH).

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