Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz?

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 17, 2012

Mathman said:
I always get in trouble when I say things like this, but the problem with the Lutz is that it is not a ladies' jump.

Almost every woman doing lutzes in the early-to-mid 90's took off from the correct edge. Yamaguchi, Ito, Kerrigan, Harding, Baiul, Bonaly, Sato, etc. took off from the proper edge, so I think there's more to it than it isn't a woman's jump. I think there's been a rush to do a lutz at any cost early on with the ladies because most of the women doing the jump have been doing it since age 13, and I don't think that was the case with the women from the 1990s. Now that a bad lutz isn't being rewarded, and good skating is, maybe these young girls can chill out and focus on developing good technique that will allow them to attain proper jumps as a mid-teen, rather than working on the lutz at age 11.

irinas · Mar 18, 2012

mateusp1 said:
For me, The Lutz is not necessary.

We have to think in 2 aspects. The first is the SP. The second one is the FS.

First of all, in the SP, the Lutz missing is not a problem at all. Why? If you consider that some skater had great achievements without the most difficult jumping passes.

1)Let's compare Carolina's SP layout with a layout without a 3-3, but with a Lutz and a Flip.

The most difficult for a SP without a 3-3, but with a 3Lz and a 3F is: 3Lz+2Lo, 3F, 2A. The base value for these jumps: 16,4.

But we all know that 3Lz+2Lo is not a commom combo, only very few skaters have already performed 3Lz+2Lo in competition(Carolina already performed). 3Lz+2T is much more often performed. Joannie Rochette reached, deservedly, 70 points in the Vancouver SP with a 3Lz+2T, 3F and 2A (15,9 of base value). I am sure that if she became a world champion with 3lz+2T, 3F, 2A nobody would complain. And a lot of skaters without 3-3(Mirai Nagasu, Valentina Marchei, Alissa Czisny) try to put the harder triples in the SP to have a stronger base value.

Now, let's see Carolina Kostner jumps for the SP: 3T+3T, 3Lo, 2A. Base Value: 16,6. Yes, it worth more than a SP with a Flip and Lutz, without 3-3.

Comparing:

a) 3Lz+2T (6+1,3), 3F(5,3), 2A(3,3) : 15,9 of base value;

b) 3T+3T(4,1+4,1), 3Lo(5,1), 2A(3,3) : 16,6 of base value.

Also, Carolina has perfect and exquisite execution of her jumping passes, what gives her extra points(GOE). She can recieve +1,4 for her 3T+3T and the Loop. This season, she has already reached 9,6 with her 3T+3T(more points than a 3F+3T with an average execution) and 6,5 for the Loop(higher value than a Lutz with a good execution, which has a base value of 6 points). She is using the COP rules in her favor.

2) The FS. Well, for me, I would prefer to see a clean and perfect program from Carolina with easier jumps than a program with some mistakes with more difficult jumps. Carolina has realized that the best way to get good scores is avoiding mistakes. A negative GOE in a program really decreases the Performance/Execution score. The Skating Skills score is also affected. A clean skate pumps up the PC's.

She also has a higher value base for her spins than her competitors. Carolina's spins can reach 10,2 points of basue value. She performs a FCCoSp, a CCoSp and a FCSp. Just to make a quick comparation, Mao Asada's spins can reach 8,9 points. Asada has a CCoSp, a FCoSp and a SSp. So, she was smart and decided to have more difficult spins to gain extra points.

Her spirals and step sequences are very very good indeed. The spirals are fast and have deep edges. The step sequence is super difficult and has a very high level and tastefully constructed.

Her choreography and transitions are much more complex and rich than the other girls. That is why her PC's deserve to be very high.

Also, there is the quality of the execution of her elements, wich can give her a lot of points. If she perform everything clean and recieve only positive GOE, she is gonna have a super score, because everything she performs is very well done and has so much quality.

So, figure skating is not only about one jump. It is a whole package. And, for me, Carolina has a very good package, the best this season. Her programs are amazing. Her jumps, spirals and step sequences are first class and textbook.

Hugs.

*SORRY FOR THE TERRIBLE ENGLISH.

Great analysis of Carolina's corrent jumping content. I do believe that she doesn't need to do a triple lutz, at all.

jiggs · Mar 18, 2012

mateusp1 said:
For me, The Lutz is not necessary.

We have to think in 2 aspects. The first is the SP. The second one is the FS.

First of all, in the SP, the Lutz missing is not a problem at all. Why? If you consider that some skater had great achievements without the most difficult jumping passes.

1)Let's compare Carolina's SP layout with a layout without a 3-3, but with a Lutz and a Flip.

The most difficult for a SP without a 3-3, but with a 3Lz and a 3F is: 3Lz+2Lo, 3F, 2A. The base value for these jumps: 16,4.

But we all know that 3Lz+2Lo is not a commom combo, only very few skaters have already performed 3Lz+2Lo in competition(Carolina already performed). 3Lz+2T is much more often performed. Joannie Rochette reached, deservedly, 70 points in the Vancouver SP with a 3Lz+2T, 3F and 2A (15,9 of base value). I am sure that if she became a world champion with 3lz+2T, 3F, 2A nobody would complain. And a lot of skaters without 3-3(Mirai Nagasu, Valentina Marchei, Alissa Czisny) try to put the harder triples in the SP to have a stronger base value.

Now, let's see Carolina Kostner jumps for the SP: 3T+3T, 3Lo, 2A. Base Value: 16,6. Yes, it worth more than a SP with a Flip and Lutz, without 3-3.

Comparing:

a) 3Lz+2T (6+1,3), 3F(5,3), 2A(3,3) : 15,9 of base value;

b) 3T+3T(4,1+4,1), 3Lo(5,1), 2A(3,3) : 16,6 of base value.

Also, Carolina has perfect and exquisite execution of her jumping passes, what gives her extra points(GOE). She can recieve +1,4 for her 3T+3T and the Loop. This season, she has already reached 9,6 with her 3T+3T(more points than a 3F+3T with an average execution) and 6,5 for the Loop(higher value than a Lutz with a good execution, which has a base value of 6 points). She is using the COP rules in her favor.

2) The FS. Well, for me, I would prefer to see a clean and perfect program from Carolina with easier jumps than a program with some mistakes with more difficult jumps. Carolina has realized that the best way to get good scores is avoiding mistakes. A negative GOE in a program really decreases the Performance/Execution score. The Skating Skills score is also affected. A clean skate pumps up the PC's.

She also has a higher value base for her spins than her competitors. Carolina's spins can reach 10,2 points of basue value. She performs a FCCoSp, a CCoSp and a FCSp. Just to make a quick comparation, Mao Asada's spins can reach 8,9 points. Asada has a CCoSp, a FCoSp and a SSp. So, she was smart and decided to have more difficult spins to gain extra points.

Her spirals and step sequences are very very good indeed. The spirals are fast and have deep edges. The step sequence is super difficult and has a very high level and tastefully constructed.

Her choreography and transitions are much more complex and rich than the other girls. That is why her PC's deserve to be very high.

Also, there is the quality of the execution of her elements, wich can give her a lot of points. If she perform everything clean and recieve only positive GOE, she is gonna have a super score, because everything she performs is very well done and has so much quality.

So, figure skating is not only about one jump. It is a whole package. And, for me, Carolina has a very good package, the best this season. Her programs are amazing. Her jumps, spirals and step sequences are first class and textbook.

Hugs.

*SORRY FOR THE TERRIBLE ENGLISH.

Mateusp1, I think you are spot on with your analysis of Carolina's program. After all, the lutz is only one jump and that's about all her skating is missing right now. Everything else she does in her programs is just pure quality.

Mrs. P · Mar 18, 2012

Totally inspired by the Michigan State and St. Louis game this afternoon got me thinking about this thread.

St. Louis was totally mismatched against MSU. MSU is just a physically stronger team.

St. Louis, as commentators noted, know they don't have the physical ability to outscore MSU. So what do they do? They mess with MSU's game tempo. Take the second half — they got MSU to foul four times within a 45 second possession. That totally threw MSU off and it caused St. Louis to keep the game close though MSU ultimately won. (But MSU was exhausted, so I think St. Louis proved its strategy was effective).

That's why March Madness is awesome — because underdogs who don't have the raw physical strength can win with strategy and persistence.

Carolina is like St. Louis. She knows that she cannot do the Lutz with consistency, so she and her team have developed a strategy that helps her win medals and beat those skaters who are the "MSU" skaters — skaters who have more difficult jump content. When you see Carolina skate you forget for a moment she doesn't have a Lutz because she has developed programs that highlight her talents. Like I forgot for several moments in today's game that MSU was the No. 1 seed and St. Louis was a mid-major team.

Mathman · Mar 18, 2012

^ Plus, any team that calls itself the Bilikens has got my vote.

The SLU Billiken: http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/614205735/billiken.jpg

dorispulaski · Mar 18, 2012

That's not a real billiken

5 of these are billikens:

http://www.cowanauctions.com/itemImages/77633.jpg

It should be an Alaskan college whose teams are the Billikens

Mrs. P · Mar 18, 2012

Yeah, when I was watching the game I was like "Billik-wha?" But anyway, those Billikens sure gave those Spartans a run for their money.

ETA: Also I totally dig the coach — Rick Majerus. He has an awesome name and I feel like he would be one of those tough-love coaches that will get you in gear.

ETA2: Sorry to hijak the thread with basketball. Seriously that was one amazing game.

Mathman · Mar 18, 2012

dorispulaski said:
That's not a real billiken.

I know. My grandmother had one in prominent display in her house. I always thought it was some kind of Moomin from Norway.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-Bnh60jVriI/TUb-ybJBG2I/AAAAAAAAAAM/y_fZXlWNU3o/s220/1987559.gif

Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz?

drivingmissdaisy

irinas

jiggs

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Mathman

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Mathman

Similar threads

Connect with us