Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 68

Thread: Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz?

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Treviso, Italy
    Posts
    253
    Quote Originally Posted by loren View Post
    Ando, I'm not sure, however, the one without salchow, and the other without loop, had a harder element to make up for, AND the artistry.
    Also Carolina HAS artistry and it's not that carolina has nothig to deserve a world title... of course with yuna competing and the mao of 2010 it would be different and harder ...but not having a lutz it doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve the title...Let's the competition speak for it!

  2. #17
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Left field
    Posts
    3,455
    Quote Originally Posted by loren View Post
    Ando, I'm not sure, however, the one without salchow, and the other without loop, had a harder element to make up for, AND the artistry.
    A hard element does not "make up" for not doing an easy element. It does offer the opportunity to amass more points, of course, which these ladies did. Clarly, then, Ms. Kostner is getting her points in other ways - by doing high level steps (she gets level 4s on occasion), executing everything well (including correct jump technique, something that can't be said for many skaters) and skating difficult programs.

    Like it or not, the scoring system does not quantify "artistry", and two of the PCS components are mainly technical - SS and TR. Kostner's skating skills are among the strongest in the field and her programs are superb.

    Beyond that, I will refer you to gkelly's excellent post.

  3. #18
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Treviso, Italy
    Posts
    253
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    I know, figure skating is a very rare "sport" in which different standards apply to men and women, well ladies, and in which old ladies can use their age as an excuse for not taking risks and automatically get rewarded with more points (PCS). Young girls never get high PCS no matter how musical (IN) or charismatic (PE) they are or how intelligently their programs are choreographed (CH).
    She's not taking excuse for her age! Simply she hasn't a secure lutz and avoid to do it..she did it in the past and was more a miss than a hit that's it? And she's not praying every judges to give her high components simply she gets what she deserve for how she skate and she is skating brilliantly this year you cannot deny it...

  4. #19
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    217
    I don't know why it has become a HUGE deal this season that Carolina doesn't include a lutz. It's not fair and totally unnecessary to point the finger at her but not at others who do exactly the same thing, which is using the COP judging system to their advantages! Look at the last three world champs: Miki didn't include the flip because she wanted to avoid getting edge calls. The year before, Mao didn't include a Salchow because it is just not a good jump for her. Same goes for Yuna with the loop in 2010. I am getting so fed up with everyone complaining about Carolina's missing lutz.

    She has landed clean 3-3 combinations in the SP in 5 out of 6 competitions she attended this season. She performed two 3flips and a 2a3t in her LP at Challenge Cup. Her jumping technique is textbook. She has great programs and has improved tremendously on the second mark. I bet a lot of people don't even watch her programs but look at the scores and start complaining right away.

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,965
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    I know, figure skating is a very rare "sport" in which different standards apply to men and women, well ladies, and in which old ladies can use their age as an excuse for not taking risks and automatically get rewarded with more points (PCS). Young girls never get high PCS no matter how musical (IN) or charismatic (PE) they are or how intelligently their programs are choreographed (CH).
    This is not true.

    Skating history is full of examples of older male skaters doing less jump content than they had in their youth and sometimes winning, or placing ahead of younger skaters with harder jumps, on the strength of their other skills.

    There are also plenty of young girls who have gotten high scores for presentation/PCS when they deserved it. Oksana Baiul 1993 and Michelle Kwan 1996 are good examples; in IJS era, Mao Asada 2007 and Mirai Nagasu 2010 come to mind.

  6. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    If Miki freaking Ando has 2 World titles it would be a travesty if Kostner does not get atleast 1. She is a far superior skater to Ando.

  7. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanja90 View Post
    Last year we had a champion without a flip, the year before a champion without a salchow, in 2009 a champion without a loop and the list goes on and on...why the problem presents only know with carolina who is not doing the lutz? It's ridicolous...There's much more than a jump in figure skating..
    Kostner is just never given a fair shake by people. She hasnt been gifted a single of her wins this year (LOL at someone calling her the female Chan as far as judging, ridiculous), and in fact was majorly robbed of a victory at Skate America where she skated very well and lost to Czisny who had falls and major errors, and even lost the skating skills components mark to Czisny. However like Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze who were also never given a fair shake from fans, she got a "held up" rep sometime early in her career, and has never been able to shake it. This despite she is a skater who has never won a major title, was arguably unfairly held down in favor of someone like Lepisto at the 2009 Europeans and 2010 Worlds, and never achieves top results without performing very well (with the one possible exception of the 2008 Worlds).

  8. #23
    Custom Title macy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    558
    if the field is shallow like it is now, no. this is why if caro skates clean or nearly clean, she will most likely win. if the field was deeper (miki, yuna, a stronger mao) then yes she would. there would be a much much smaller chance for her to even medal if that was the case. meaning if she plans to stay until sochi she needs to whip out some 3Lz's pretty quick because the little russians are coming to take over the skating world

  9. #24
    Custom Title macy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    558
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    If Miki freaking Ando has 2 World titles it would be a travesty if Kostner does not get atleast 1. She is a far superior skater to Ando.
    right?! miki may have some harder jumps but her second mark is horrible...i've never enjoyed her skating. its extremely boring and doesn't have any emotion. not very impressive.

  10. #25
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,829
    Quote Originally Posted by doug_log View Post
    Wagner flutzes, though she got a pass from the 4CC panel.
    Czisny lips.
    Asada flutzes.
    Suzuki sometimes she gets edge calls, sometimes she does not.
    Murakami flutzes.
    Shelepen: full set!
    Korobeynikova: full set!
    Leonova: full set; sometimes gets edge calls.
    Kostner: no lutz this season.
    Here is my suggestion for meeting these problems in ladies’ skating.

    The key is to follow consistently the rules for the toe loop and toe Walley. For purposes of scoring and for Zayak considerations, these two jumps count as variations of the same jump. The toe Walley is harder, being a counter-rotated jump like the Lutz, but does not carry a different base value. According to the present scoring system, the important defining characteristics are (a) toe-pick assisted and (b) landing on same foot. Inside edge and outside edge are regarded as variations within the same jump category.

    So…

    There are four different jump categories, excluding the Axel. Base values could be something like this (more or less the base values in the very first version of the CoP).

    T. Toe-pick assisted, same foot landing. Includes the toe loop and the toe Walley; 4.0. (Scores for triple Axel and quads would be three times the base value for the jump of one less rotation).

    S. Edge jump, opposite foot landing. Includes Salchow and (the near impossible) toeless Lutz; 4.5.

    R. Edge jumps, same foot landing. Includes loop and Walley; 5.0.

    Z. Toe-pick assisted, opposite foot landing. Includes flip and Lutz; 5.5.

    In the Z category you could do an inside edge Z or an outside edge Z. Repeats are permitted in any of the following three cases. (a) The second occurrence has a different edge from the first, {b] one of the occurrences is in combination, or (extremely rare) (c) the second occurrence is in the opposite direct from the first.

    A pure, distinct takeoff edge would be a positive feature for GOE, while a wobbly unclear edge would be a negative feature. Doing a different edge on the repeated occurrence would also be a positive GOE factor. (If necessary there could be greater rewards for a skater who does both, but I don’t think that would be necessary.)

    So a solid ladies program might go like this

    3Z+3T (triple Lutz or triple flip combo, positive GOE for solid definite edge)
    3Z (same or different, positive GOE for different)
    3R (triple loop)
    3S (triple toeless Lutz, 4.5 points )
    2A+3T (3.5+4.0 points)
    2A

    Or, program (b), replace the last two passes with

    2A+2A seq
    3R+2R (no three-jump combos, please)

    This completes the six scored rotational jump passes. The seventh pass is the “choreography jump pass.” Split jumps, stag jumps, various kinds of hops and bounds strung together, base value 2.0 but with full opportunity for big GOE.

    (That's my plan and I'm sticking to it. )

  11. #26
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,235
    You got your toe loop/walley and flip/Lutz descriptions confused - the toe is a pick with one land on the other, the flip/Lutz is a pick with one, land on same. Toe is a weight shift group, flip/Lutz is a non-weight shift group.

  12. #27
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,829
    ^ I meant, for the toe loop, that you land on the same foot that you took off from, etc.

  13. #28
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    157
    I think a World Champion should be able to execute ALL the jumps. A World Champion should be "well rounded" in the sport of figure skating. A World Champion should demonstrate spins, footwork, sprials,jumps, edges in a well choreographed program. I still believe that "Figures" should be part of showing a skaters ability. Just my humble opinion

  14. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    1,187
    Agree, except the Figures part seems impractical. The dominating hours which "world class" figures took would make having "all the jumps" as well near super human. If the World Champion in 2012 does not have a triple lutz, then it is more a reflection of the sport than what 'ought to be' IMO.

  15. #30
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,581
    OT but lutz is my least favorite jump, it looks unnatural rotating this way, even the junior jumping beans dont make me like it. Sorry mr Lutz.

    Cop doesnt punish for what you dont do, it sums up what you do, so I dont know what people complain about.
    Besides if you see Karolina's program live, especially this year, you forget she didnt do a lutz in the program, as you forgot Yuna was not doing a loop or whatever when you were seeing her live.

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •