Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz?

[Mathman]

OT but lutz is my least favorite jump, it looks unnatural rotating this way, even the junior jumping beans dont make me like it. Sorry mr Lutz.

I always get in trouble when I say things like this, but the problem with the Lutz is that it is not a ladies' jump.

That unnatural curving the wrong way looks totally cool if you have the upper body strength to establish the wrong-way curve and then snap! your body back around the other way, imposing your will on the law of conservation of angular momentum.

Here are two examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ngQgDVwqP8 (3:05; one of the finest performances in the history of skating )

And here is another "man."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbeq_M8Lgtg

[Buttercup]

I like the Lutz. The counterrotation looks cool.

I think a World Champion should be able to execute ALL the jumps. A World Champion should be "well rounded" in the sport of figure skating. A World Champion should demonstrate spins, footwork, sprials,jumps, edges in a well choreographed program. I still believe that "Figures" should be part of showing a skaters ability.

I agree that ideally champion skaters will be able to do everything well. However, there will be times when no such skater(s) exist - and when that happens, I don't think there is one specific element that should be considered the price of admission if you want to be a champion (beyond the existing program requirements). The last few ladies to win were all missing jumps from their repertoire - and that includes the OGM; three men's world champions in a row did not land a rotated quad - and that also includes the OGM; S/S often struggle with syncing their spins. This does not necessarily make them unworthy champions IMO; if they were the best in the competition - and it doesn't matter which competition - then they deserved to win. Some more than others

[sky_fly20]

on the contrary, I have learned to appreciate Kostner over the years, I do agree she is
getting cleaner as the season progress even if she has no lutz compared to over her past meltdown records. not yet sure if she is ready to be crowned as the world's champion, but then again, its long overdue and this could be her last shot at wining worlds, Kostner is at her career peak.

[Blades of Passion]

This thread begs the question if skaters should have to attempt each type of jump in their program (regardless of how many rotations), or else they receive a deduction. Can't do a Triple Lutz? Well you have to put a Double Lutz in the program.

Arguments can be made either way. I'm more on the the side of "NO, that shouldn't be a requirement" (variety is a good thing), but not 100% set in that opinion.

There should definitely be a bonus for properly executing all of the different types of jumps in a program, though.

[seniorita]

I always get in trouble when I say things like this, but the problem with the Lutz is that it is not a ladies' jump.

Why? Does the angry ghost of Mr Lutz come in your sleep and asks for an explanation?

[Mathman]

^ The part where I get in trouble is when I say that men's skating and women's skating are different. To say that a triple Lutz is a manly man's sort of jump is certain to get the speaker into hot water.

[loren]

This thread begs the question if skaters should have to attempt each type of jump in their program (regardless of how many rotations), or else they receive a deduction. Can't do a Triple Lutz? Well you have to put a Double Lutz in the program.

Arguments can be made either way. I'm more on the the side of "NO, that shouldn't be a requirement" (variety is a good thing), but not 100% set in that opinion.

There should definitely be a bonus for properly executing all of the different types of jumps in a program, though.

This seems like very encouraging rule for skaters who are willing to take risks, and try harder jumps, however, ISU so far has not implemented this rule.
What can be the obstacle(s)?

[mskater93]

^ I meant, for the toe loop, that you land on the same foot that you took off from, etc.

No, the toe loop lands on the OPPOSITE foot you picked with (which is the foot you took off from as the edge-riding foot leaves the ice before the toe picking foot), the flip and Lutz land on the same foot you picked with.

[mskater93]

Agree, except the Figures part seems impractical. The dominating hours which "world class" figures took would make having "all the jumps" as well near super human. If the World Champion in 2012 does not have a triple lutz, then it is more a reflection of the sport than what 'ought to be' IMO.

Two words here: Midori Ito. She wasn't the most consistent skater of figures, but she DID have it all...

[lcd]

There are so many with a triple lutz who SO lack so much else. Seems limited question.

[Olympia]

There are so many with a triple lutz who SO lack so much else. Seems limited question.

I remember in the days when Michelle Kwan rarely had a triple-triple. One skater who generally had a dependable triple-triple was Amber Corwin. She made it into the top six at Nationals for quite a few years. She was a pleasing skater but not an exceptional one. No one would say that Amber Corwin deserved to beat Michelle in any competition, unless Michelle literally skated the whole thing sitting down on the ice.

[Mathman]

No, the toe loop lands on the OPPOSITE foot you picked with (which is the foot you took off from as the edge-riding foot leaves the ice before the toe picking foot), the flip and Lutz land on the same foot you picked with.

OK. OK.

But blame Wikipedia, not me, for the way I described it.

The toe loop jump is a toe jump that takes off from the back outside edge and lands on the same back outside edge.

The Lutz jump...is a toe jump that takes off from a back outside edge and lands on the back outside edge of the opposite foot.

[mskater93]

OK. OK.

But blame Wikipedia, not me, for the way I described it.

Whoever described it in Wikipedia did a poor job. USFS has a nice description in the rules section.

[let`s talk]

Look at men's, since Chan has set the standard so high(aiming for two 4-3s, a quad, and triple axels in sp and fp

You are late like for ten years. Those standards were set long time ago by two Russians fighting with each other. With the "small" difference that they could actually land all those jumps on a regular basis, unlike Mr. Chan.

[ivy]

No, the toe loop lands on the OPPOSITE foot you picked with (which is the foot you took off from as the edge-riding foot leaves the ice before the toe picking foot), the flip and Lutz land on the same foot you picked with.

Really you an MM are describing the same thing. I think of it the way MM puts it. When he says "same foot landing" I read "the same foot as was the skating foot". For flip, skate on left back inside edge, toe pick with right foot, jump and spin, land on right back outside edge. I always assumed that was why is was called a flip, you 'flipped' from one foot to the opposite foot.

I've never quite understood why such a distinction is made between flips and lutzes, while toe walleys are ignored. Or one footed axels. But I'm fine with the jump content listed as it is now. I am partial to the idea of requiring all skaters to do all of the current listed jumps, even if they can only do a double or single. If something like that started at the Novice level, we might have stronger jump technique by the time they got to Sr.