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Thread: Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz?

  1. #46
    Custom Title snowflake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I always get in trouble when I say things like this, but the problem with the Lutz is that it is not a ladies' jump.

    That unnatural curving the wrong way looks totally cool if you have the upper body strength to establish the wrong-way curve and then snap! your body back around the other way, imposing your will on the law of conservation of angular momentum.

    Here are two examples.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ngQgDVwqP8 (3:05; one of the finest performances in the history of skating )

    And here is another "man."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbeq_M8Lgtg
    ... and a third example

  2. #47
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Victoria Volchkova had a good one too (as well as Julia Sebasteyn,

    Not to mention Tonya Harding & Midori Ito.

    And Gracie Gold.

    Do all of them get to be honorary men, MM?
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 03-16-2012 at 02:53 PM.

  3. #48
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    I think my favorite lutz was Tatiana Malanina's. She covered a ton of ice, exited with a lot of speed, had great height, and looked so easy picking into the ice. Unfortunately she didn't land her jumps regularly enough to compete for major titles (4CC Title notwithstanding).

  4. #49
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowflake View Post
    ... and a third example
    and here goes a fourth example

    Ice coverage, height, solid edge, difficult edge change going in, clean and sharp use of toe-picking and adding 3T at it. What more could be asked?

  5. #50
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    it seams quite strange to me, when people discuss the missing of one jump more obstructing than the missing of another jump.
    If you say, the Lutz is more difficult than the Loop, than you are not worthy if you don't master the easy jump as it is easy and therefore you should master it. So if you can't do an easy jump: ???shame on you?????
    I don't think so. You are an all round skater and do beautiful programs and get awarded for what you do. It's better than others? You should win!!!!!! The others are better than you? They should win.
    It's that simple.
    I always think the wrong edge jumps should count less, that is, a 3Fultz should count as a 3F with negative(-2) Goe and a 3Lip as a 3Lz with negative(-2) Goe. I'm so sick about skaters doing three 3F and getting awarded for two 3F and one 3Lz(-1) Goe, so the result is they do one more jump and get awarded more than a true 3T for it and getting the possibility to do 7 triples instead of six
    That should not be possible and is a breaking the roles witch is ok for the roles, but not for me.
    But it you omit one jump you don't get the points for it and you are limited to do at most six triples. So there is penalty. If you, despite that, can get more points than the others, you should win!!!!
    Last edited by npavel; 03-17-2012 at 06:16 AM.

  6. #51
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    Thought it would be interesting to see what previous champions' technical layout was(only after COP has implemented):

    2005 World Champion- Irina Slutsukaya 3Lz-3Lo, 3S-2Lo-2T, 3Lo, 3Lo*-2Lo, 3F, 3T, 2A
    2006 World Champion-Kimmie Meissner 3F-3T, 2A, 3Lz-3T, 3Lo, 3Lz, 3S, 2A-2T-2Lo
    2007 World Champion-Miki Ando 3Lz-3Lo, 3S, 3F, 3Lz, 3T-2Lo-2Lo, 3F-2Lo, 2A
    2008 World Champion- Mao Asada 1A, 3F-3T, 3Lz(e), 3Lo, 3F-3Lo<, 2A-2Lo-2Lo, 2A
    2009 World Champion- Yuna Kim 3Lz-3T, 3F, 2A-2T-2Lo, 2A-3T, 3S, 3Lz, 1A
    2010 World Champion- Mao Asada 3A, 3A<-2T, 3F-2Lo, 3Lo, 3F-2Lo-2Lo, 3T, 2A
    2011 World Champion-Miki Ando 3Lz-2Lo, 3Lo, 2A-2T, 3Lz, 3S, 3T, 2A-2Lo-2Lo

    No wonder they are the champions
    Last edited by loren; 03-17-2012 at 08:07 AM.

  7. #52
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    but.. we all know the wrong edge issues and that you where allowed to have the same jump multiple times. Now there is no point to have 3F3T 3Lz3T if you have wrong edge in one of them. If you have 2A3T you have to take away one 3T some other 3T. So you can't really compare
    Irinas third 3L would coun't 0p this time and Miki Ando's second 3Lz is still a 3F as it should have been called ...

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by loren View Post
    Thought it would be interesting to see what previous champions' technical layout was(only after COP has implemented):

    2005 World Champion- Irina Slutsukaya 3Lz-3Lo, 3S-2Lo-2T, 3Lo, 3Lo*-2Lo, 3F, 3T, 2A
    2006 World Champion-Kimmie Meissner 3F-3T, 2A, 3Lz-3T, 3Lo, 3Lz, 3S, 2A-2T-2Lo
    2007 World Champion-Miki Ando 3Lz-3Lo, 3S, 3F, 3Lz, 3T-2Lo-2Lo, 3F-2Lo, 2A
    2008 World Champion- Mao Asada 1A, 3F-3T, 3Lz(e), 3Lo, 3F-3Lo<, 2A-2Lo-2Lo, 2A
    2009 World Champion- Yuna Kim 3Lz-3T, 3F, 2A-2T-2Lo, 2A-3T, 3S, 3Lz, 1A
    2010 World Champion- Mao Asada 3A, 3A<-2T, 3F-2Lo, 3Lo, 3F-2Lo-2Lo, 3T, 2A
    2011 World Champion-Miki Ando 3Lz-2Lo, 3Lo, 2A-2T, 3Lz, 3S, 3T, 2A-2Lo-2Lo

    No wonder they are the champions
    It's pretty awesome when you map it out like that, isn't it? Thanks for compiling this.

  9. #54
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    No, this year in this VERY weak field, the WorldChampion doesn't necesseraly needs a Triple Lutz to execute.

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    I think it is pretty obvious that what is "important" to the judges has changed in the past few years. Maybe not right after the judging change, but definitely over the last couple of years.

    Skating clean--down
    Jumping--down
    Edges--up
    Transitions--up
    Speed--up
    Spins--up
    It's hard for someone like me, who's not a skater but became a fan during the jumping/clean skating era of the 90's and early 00's to reconcile,no matter how much I read the experts on this board. When I see someone win who falls (sometimes more than once) or who doesn't do the harder jumps, because of their speed, edging, or one-footed footwork, it doesn't seem quite right. Or fair. Because how much does speed and edging change from competition to competition? Probably not that much. The footwork would be the same (and I've seen people mess up their "hard" footwork and still win by a mile) But anyone can miss a jump on any day. So the results seem almost pre-set more than they were before, unless there are two skaters whose edging, etc. is considered as good.

    I think we are in a trend where the jump content will be down from what it was several years ago, unless Gracie and the Russian girls really shake things up. So, no, you no longer need a lutz to be a champion. That era is past.

  11. #56
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    The lutz era is NOT past. It's just temporarily in hiatus because so many of the current top skaters don't have a proper lutz. But many skaters DO have 3/3s, so it's not as if all technical content has disappeared.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    I think we are in a trend where the jump content will be down from what it was several years ago, unless Gracie and the Russian girls really shake things up. So, no, you no longer need a lutz to be a champion. That era is past.
    I think in the era when you didn't score every minute detail, you needed benchmarks to classify the top tier of skaters from the second tier, those who were to be the face of skating. For a long time, the lutz was the benchmark jump and the axel was for the men. What I mean is that, a man could do a 3A and make a few other mistakes and still beat another man who was clean but could only do the triples through the lutz. Many times you saw top women who had complete meltdown skates finish ahead of clean programs that had 2 or 3 different triples. Even when skaters didn't complete the jump they got a bump in marks for just being able to do it, such as Surya finishing 4th in the LP at the 1994 Olympics.

    Now it's better because at least you get scored for what you do, rather than being placed within some range of marks based on your reputation. That's why I think someone like Ashley has a shot, because if she can skate clean and complete the full set of triples she will rank right up there. I'd still put her behind Caro's most recent outing, but I think there are questions about whether Kostner can deliver a program like that under pressure knowing that a world title is at stake and hers to lose.

  13. #58
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    For me, The Lutz is not necessary.

    We have to think in 2 aspects. The first is the SP. The second one is the FS.

    First of all, in the SP, the Lutz missing is not a problem at all. Why? If you consider that some skater had great achievements without the most difficult jumping passes.

    1)Let's compare Carolina's SP layout with a layout without a 3-3, but with a Lutz and a Flip.

    The most difficult for a SP without a 3-3, but with a 3Lz and a 3F is: 3Lz+2Lo, 3F, 2A. The base value for these jumps: 16,4.

    But we all know that 3Lz+2Lo is not a commom combo, only very few skaters have already performed 3Lz+2Lo in competition(Carolina already performed). 3Lz+2T is much more often performed. Joannie Rochette reached, deservedly, 70 points in the Vancouver SP with a 3Lz+2T, 3F and 2A (15,9 of base value). I am sure that if she became a world champion with 3lz+2T, 3F, 2A nobody would complain. And a lot of skaters without 3-3(Mirai Nagasu, Valentina Marchei, Alissa Czisny) try to put the harder triples in the SP to have a stronger base value.

    Now, let's see Carolina Kostner jumps for the SP: 3T+3T, 3Lo, 2A. Base Value: 16,6. Yes, it worth more than a SP with a Flip and Lutz, without 3-3.

    Comparing:

    a) 3Lz+2T (6+1,3), 3F(5,3), 2A(3,3) : 15,9 of base value;

    b) 3T+3T(4,1+4,1), 3Lo(5,1), 2A(3,3) : 16,6 of base value.

    Also, Carolina has perfect and exquisite execution of her jumping passes, what gives her extra points(GOE). She can recieve +1,4 for her 3T+3T and the Loop. This season, she has already reached 9,6 with her 3T+3T(more points than a 3F+3T with an average execution) and 6,5 for the Loop(higher value than a Lutz with a good execution, which has a base value of 6 points). She is using the COP rules in her favor.

    2) The FS. Well, for me, I would prefer to see a clean and perfect program from Carolina with easier jumps than a program with some mistakes with more difficult jumps. Carolina has realized that the best way to get good scores is avoiding mistakes. A negative GOE in a program really decreases the Performance/Execution score. The Skating Skills score is also affected. A clean skate pumps up the PC's.

    She also has a higher value base for her spins than her competitors. Carolina's spins can reach 10,2 points of basue value. She performs a FCCoSp, a CCoSp and a FCSp. Just to make a quick comparation, Mao Asada's spins can reach 8,9 points. Asada has a CCoSp, a FCoSp and a SSp. So, she was smart and decided to have more difficult spins to gain extra points.

    Her spirals and step sequences are very very good indeed. The spirals are fast and have deep edges. The step sequence is super difficult and has a very high level and tastefully constructed.

    Her choreography and transitions are much more complex and rich than the other girls. That is why her PC's deserve to be very high.

    Also, there is the quality of the execution of her elements, wich can give her a lot of points. If she perform everything clean and recieve only positive GOE, she is gonna have a super score, because everything she performs is very well done and has so much quality.

    So, figure skating is not only about one jump. It is a whole package. And, for me, Carolina has a very good package, the best this season. Her programs are amazing. Her jumps, spirals and step sequences are first class and textbook.

    Hugs.

    *SORRY FOR THE TERRIBLE ENGLISH.

  14. #59
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    Mateusp1, your English is excellent

    I agree that Carolina is the full package. It was her most recent outing that really impressed me. The little things I didn't like about her skating before, such as the jump entries with arms by her side a la Surya and the inconsistency on every triple jump, are no longer an issue. Every aspect of her skating aside from jumps is among the absolute best in the world right now; when she wins she usually wins on TES alone. Yes, I'd like to see her challenge herself with 3/3's and a lutz, but she seems to have found a winning formula for now and she should stick to the plan.

  15. #60
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    Carolina should win because her free is a masterpiece Nichol outdid herself here with Mozart.

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