2012 Challenge Cup

[Skater Boy]

The Challenge Cup is over and it was very "challenging". There may be a silver lining for Abbott and Czisny - it may mean the odds are they will have good skates and skate up to their potential at World's because they can't always skate this bad...both were medalists but some may argue they should be forced to give up their medals (and some pundits want them not to go to world's). They didn't just skate poorly but they were both abysmal. however they medalled adn their scores weren't bad at all. For all those who say Patrick Chan is overmarked if you are being fair Evan and Alyssa got their marks wrapped with a bow for nothing. No pressure and there weren't just falls. Wow how disappointing.

[demarinis5]

Why bring Patrick and Evan into the Challenge Cup discussion? They were not there.
Do we really need a new thread about how poorly Jeremy and Alissa skated, we know.

[skateluvr]

Evan Who? You say Evan (lysacek) was at CC? Perhaps you mean Jeremy? And what does it mean if they were held up? Does that excuse the judges for chanflation which is the most obvious favorite in the world? Chan spent first half of season on butt half the programs and won anyway. So CoP heavily favors speedily done footwork, and rewards heavily transitions in and out of jumps. No setting up jumps as in 6.0 days seems to be causing more injuries. Only a few can speed skate for 4 mins with no rest periods, or the slower sections where we saw beautifully controlled skating. So few people can stay vertical in CoP programs. It is an experiment in skating which needs much change.

Neither Abbott nor Alissa are good competitors. I think it speaks to the great difficulty of CoP programs that so few people are ever vertical through a whole program. And we know, we heard, some don't want to watch such bad skates, and there was already a thread discussing replacing them, but it can't be done. So better luck at Worlds. I think it was stupid to send them to this event. Maybe they wanted to go, but USFS was not thinking. Knowing both these skaters suffer from nerves really has set them up. If they wanted an American lady to medal, they should have sent Wagner who is rock solid this season. They should have sent a younger male-any one- why not Armin since he was "passed over" at 4cc.

I think there must be some sort of injury issue with Alissa and perhaps we will hear she will withdraw from Worlds. I would if I were her. Would Agnes be the alternate having come in 3rd at Nationals? If Alissa chooses to withdraw, I hope Agnes goes. If she is "ok" physically, they have no choice but to send her. Why they sent those two with World podium hopes to this event is not clear to me. I have no idea what is with jeremy, but I don' plan to watch these skates. It is simply a shame.

[SkateFiguring]

For me their marks and placements are not an issue as far as this competition is concerned. It's projecting their scores and performances on to Worlds that is of concern and seems to have people all worked up. The quality of both Jeremy's skating and programs are evidently superb and his PCS are deservedly high, even if reflective of the general generosity of scoring at this event. Alissa is still a beautiful skater but she had no jumps or sparks, seemingly not wanting to get up from her falls. Jeremy stayed "clean" for his LP (as did Carolina Kostner), so why do so many complain about the marks on lack or sub par execution of difficult jumps, in contrast to insistence on clean programs and falling on rotated quads and 3A being unforgivable?

They both lost their jumps for whatever reasons. Perhaps an interview or two may reveal some specific causes that would be unlikely to surface at Worlds and everyone can have a sigh of relief. At this point, we don't know if it's technical, physical, or mental problems that plagued them. Their coaches have some work to do.

It's completely out of the question and unjustifiable to replace them for Worlds unless they are suffering from injuries or illness. There is absolutely no guarantee any replacement would do any better or that they would not bomb either. Such is the state of American Single figure skaters, not a single dependable competitor who can be counted on. All fans can do is to hope for the best from them in two weeks' time.

[skateluvr]

I would disagree with Skate Figuring's last sentence. Ashley Wagner has been very dependable this year. She goes to Worlds with the confidence of being the Ladies Champion. I expect another wonderful performance from her. I think she will take the bronze quite easily with her current program and silver if she does all planned elements. The gold seems reserved for Caro if she skates well, and there is no reason to think she won't. Nothing succeeds like success.

[SkateFiguring]

Ashley hasn't shown her toughness at big international events yet so there is not much to go by. However, I liked her declaration earlier in the season very much even as she was criticized for making those confident statements. She seemed genuine in her belief in herself and she proved it at the Nationals and the 4CC. OTOH, Jeremy, one of my favorite skaters, sounded a bit like posturing and trying to convince himself when he said he could compete with or even win over Patrick. That was my feeling though I didn't voice it openly. I had thought/hoped this is a different and break through season for him and this hope has not died.

[skateluvr]

Ashley did very well at her Grand Prix events, and being US Champion carries a lot of weight. We may see nerves, or more likely, wanting it so bad she rushes her jumps and the timing goes. She must stay cool, and try to remember she does have it all. I have believed in her all season and she has rewarded my faith in her. I hope she gets lots of support emails, tweets, whatever. I don't do that stuff but my heart is with her for sure.

[Spun Silver]

Jeremy, one of my favorite skaters, sounded a bit like posturing and trying to convince himself when he said he could compete with or even win over Patrick. That was my feeling though I didn't voice it openly. I had thought/hoped this is a different and break through season for him and this hope has not died.

I agree - he is no Plushy and the tough talk seemed misplaced. In his position, it would be better to show what he can do rather than brag in advance. I wouldn't be surprised if he has lost sleep over the thought of having to live up to his own rash claim.

I'm rooting for him, though. I want those two beautiful programs on the podium.

[pangtongfan]

If Abbott can skate like he did at Nationals he should easily win the silver at Worlds.

[Olympia]

For me their marks and placements are not an issue as far as this competition is concerned. It's projecting their scores and performances on to Worlds that is of concern and seems to have people all worked up. The quality of both Jeremy's skating and programs are evidently superb and his PCS are deservedly high, even if reflective of the general generosity of scoring at this event. Alissa is still a beautiful skater but she had no jumps or sparks, seemingly not wanting to get up from her falls. Jeremy stayed "clean" for his LP (as did Carolina Kostner), so why do so many complain about the marks on lack or sub par execution of difficult jumps, in contrast to insistence on clean programs and falling on rotated quads and 3A being unforgivable?

They both lost their jumps for whatever reasons. Perhaps an interview or two may reveal some specific causes that would be unlikely to surface at Worlds and everyone can have a sigh of relief. At this point, we don't know if it's technical, physical, or mental problems that plagued them. Their coaches have some work to do.

It's completely out of the question and unjustifiable to replace them for Worlds unless they are suffering from injuries or illness. There is absolutely no guarantee any replacement would do any better or that they would not bomb either. Such is the state of American Single figure skaters, not a single dependable competitor who can be counted on. All fans can do is to hope for the best from them in two weeks' time.

SF, I'm so glad you watched this and have reported on it, because I can't bring myself to do so. I'll just mooch off your report.

As I've been processing the event in my mind, I've come to agree with people who say that it isn't right to replace Alissa unless something is physically wrong with her. For one thing, a deal's a deal. It would be unfair if the federation could unceremoniously dump a skater who was previously given a place for Worlds. For another, as you say, SF, there's no one waiting in the wings who would be any better. (When you say that there isn't "a single dependable competitor," I assume you mean among the remaining ladies not yet chosen--you're not including Ashley.) The closest possibility as a mentally steady skater is Rachael, but this year she's not in the running, and the international judges don't seem to like her in any case. So Alissa has to stay on the team unless there's a problem with her leg. If that's the case, though, she absolutely must withdraw, preferably in time to give the replacement a chance to prepare, as Michelle did for Emily Hughes in 2006.

[SkateFiguring]

The main thing is Jeremy and Alissa will have their PCS even when they bomb their jumps, which hopefully won't happen at Worlds. Any replacement could just as easily bomb their jumps but without the back up PCS.

[Skater Boy]

I meant Abbott of course Alyssa here at the Challenge Cup. Yes, their PCS will hold them up because they are good, just like Patrick Chan and even Carolina Kostner that's how they get "held" up. Ditto for Tak if he misses jumps. These are extraordinary skaters pc wise right now. Carolina must be very happy going into world's here jumps have increased in difficulty ; she is looking the one to beat. Now if she wins the question is does she stay on or retire? I know - jumping too far ahead.

[skateluvr]

That is what is so bizarre about CoP. I finally watched Alissa's and will watch Jeremy as he could not do worse. This was like a Caro mess we used to see. She looks injured or sick. And maybe sick means too thin. I think she does not eat. She looks miserable and she closes her eyes and prays but not with any confidence. Alissa should have quit last year. She is a lovely skater with beautiful elements as we all say but she gets sick when she has to compete. Think about her process. "Ashley is gonna skate well and the third spot is up to me." After the skate I hope she is injured.(fixable as someone said.)Maybe they sent her there to test out her injury. She should absolutely withdraw. If she can't manage this skate in East Podunk, forget worlds. Every single jump! There should be negative PCS. Would Alissa get this love if she were not so drop dead movie star gorgeous? I think not. I never like watching her compete. It's too stressful. Same for Abbott. I truly think both of them are not going to be around for Sochi so why not quit. Do the few shows and move on. They are both afraid of competition. I'd rather see Agnes, tho I hate her mannish look. She is an amazing jumper and she might bring it. She used to be a confident competitor when she burst on the scene. Her jumps are so beautiful, and she is better than the marks she gets. Why? Because of the beauty pageant and the judges feeling sorry for the sweet ones who can't compete.

SOI needs Alissa. Not being mean, but how in the heck can she face Worlds after that total disaster. She was so tentative. THERE HAS to be something wrong with her. I wonder if Yuka the warrior (and she is one for sure) is telling her to skate through the pain. Suck it up if you can. This is her last year. I'm sure she will retire and this was to be her final shot at a world medal. Send Agnes. She at least will fight.

[R.D.]

I think there must be some sort of injury issue with Alissa and perhaps we will hear she will withdraw from Worlds. I would if I were her. Would Agnes be the alternate having come in 3rd at Nationals?

Yes, she is the 1st alternate.

If Czisny pulls out of worlds (I guess I wouldn't be shocked), bye bye 3 spots. You'd better pray for a freakin' MIRACLE for Zawadzki to finish even 10th...Wagner could WIN the thing and that probably would not be enough.

[skateluvr]

Agnes got screwed at nationals with her scoring. Her SP was very good. Do you think Alissa will get 10th falling on 7 jumps? She has to be injured and in pain. Then add her nerves. I bet we see a pullout. Better do it fast for Agnes to get her mind set.