Gold at worlds: Virtue/Moir or Davis/White?

It was not a fluke when you lose an FD in your home country by 4 points, V&M always find a way to beat Davis and White when they skate a full year and have the time to make changes and analyse their rivals programs, Davis and White have made no changes to their FD since October now i don`t know if they have since 4cc but the conference call they had last week did not say anything about that. The fact there isn`t a US judge on the panel can`t help Davis and White plus the caller last year was also american so i doubt the caller will be american this year, it will probably be a russian or a french caller.

I don't think it's that extreme to say it was a fluke. D/W, White mostly, were not in full form due to the all the oxygen issues with the high altitude. They were not in full form and V/M was, hence the win.

Again, I think Worlds will be super close. V/M have re tweaked their dances and are seeing results with them, which I think is wonderful. But I don't think D/W will just bow over and give up either.

Also, I find it bothersome that people feel that D/W can't win fair and square. In this thread alone, I've read that the judges are "giving PCS," favorable tech callers, that they were competing against a "weaker" V/M, etc.

I get that people have their favorites and so forth, but come on, is it really hard to believe that D/W are making improvements and can win on their own merits?

All the skaters had to deal with altitude its a poor excuse, just like last year V&M fans can come back at you and say it was Unfair Tessa Virtue had a major surgery and only competed their FD once versus D&W hardly a fair fight it will be close but not that close V&M have really upped the technical difficulty in their FD while D&W have not the draw is also a factor where D&W have had the advantage the last three comps head to head meaning they skated their FD after tessa and scott and when teams are this close it could make a difference with the judges who have to leave marks.

Charlie White has ASTHMA (he regularly takes medication for this condition) which made the effects of the high altitude much, much more severe. Neither Virtue nor Moir has asthma so they had an advantage going in.

THAT is why the 4CC results aren't predictive for Worlds, since Nice is at sea level.

D&W have had a three year advantage in terms of training over V&M because of Tessa Virtue`s injuries i didn`t hear Davis and White say after the competition that`s why they lost.

The one clear advantage that V&M have in Nice is that there is no American judge on the panel. When the scores are as close as they have been between those 2 teams, one judge more or less can make a difference.

The other open question is who is going to be on the tech panel (I don't know yet). That can also make a difference. If it's a relatively easy panel, then it will all come down to PCS, and the PCS marks for the 2 teams have been very, very close all year.

At 4CC's, other than asthma issues for Charlie, the problem in the FD was a low tech call on both their twizzles, and the spin, two skills they have been getting level 4's on all year. I could probably see the spin level, but the twizzle still puzzles me. However, they have had over a month to make sure that however tough the tech panel might be, their levels on the twizzle and the spin should not be a problem (unless they trip or something).

In short, I'm not making any predictions. However, a number of those who have posted on this thread don't seem to recognize that D&W have made a lot of improvements over the last two years. As a result, they are much closer in all ways to V&M than they used to be; additionally, D&W are faster skaters, and that has always counted for a lot; consider the career of Grishuk & Platov.

And, yes, it's the case that V&M have not been able to make the improvements they might have over the last several years because of Tessa's problems with exertional compartment syndrome. That has allowed D&W to catch up.

BTW, neither D&W nor V&M are anywhere within shouting distance of Torvill & Dean. They are good and worthy teams, who have each won a world championship, and deserved to win the world championship they won. But T&D, they're not. T&D could fill an arena in Hungary to watch them skate CD's. Neither V&M nor D&W could do that Klimova & Ponomarenko couldn't do it either. T&D were just unique.

the canadian Judge will be Jodi Abbott and British judge will be Hilary Selby a huge fan of V&M apparently.

dorispulaski said:

BTW, neither D&W nor V&M are anywhere within shouting distance of Torvill & Dean. They are good and worthy teams, who have each won a world championship, and deserved to win the world championship they won. But T&D, they're not. T&D could fill an arena in Hungary to watch them skate CD's. Neither V&M nor D&W could do that Klimova & Ponomarenko couldn't do it either. T&D were just unique.

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But Virtue & Moir did get the crowd to clap along to the Tango Romantica at the Olympics, so it's a start!

Doris Charlie was off axis on the first set of twizzles same thing happened at nationals but it was not downgraded he really needs to control and reign them in or he will take flight one of these days, the spin was very slow, i also think the tech panel was rather generous with some of the levels of their lifts two of them are rather simple and lifts they have done a million times before so i am not sure if they deserve the highest level.

dorispulaski said:

The one clear advantage that V&M have in Nice is that there is no American judge on the panel. When the scores are as close as they have been between those 2 teams, one judge more or less can make a difference.

The other open question is who is going to be on the tech panel (I don't know yet). That can also make a difference. If it's a relatively easy panel, then it will all come down to PCS, and the PCS marks for the 2 teams have been very, very close all year.

At 4CC's, other than asthma issues for Charlie, the problem in the FD was a low tech call on both their twizzles, and the spin, two skills they have been getting level 4's on all year. I could probably see the spin level, but the twizzle still puzzles me. However, they have had over a month to make sure that however tough the tech panel might be, their levels on the twizzle and the spin should not be a problem (unless they trip or something).

In short, I'm not making any predictions. However, a number of those who have posted on this thread don't seem to recognize that D&W have made a lot of improvements over the last two years. As a result, they are much closer in all ways to V&M than they used to be; additionally, D&W are faster skaters, and that has always counted for a lot; consider the career of Grishuk & Platov.

And, yes, it's the case that V&M have not been able to make the improvements they might have over the last several years because of Tessa's problems with exertional compartment syndrome. That has allowed D&W to catch up.

BTW, neither D&W nor V&M are anywhere within shouting distance of Torvill & Dean. They are good and worthy teams, who have each won a world championship, and deserved to win the world championship they won. But T&D, they're not. T&D could fill an arena in Hungary to watch them skate CD's. Neither V&M nor D&W could do that Klimova & Ponomarenko couldn't do it either. T&D were just unique.

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Great post - For sure it will be very close at Worlds - For V/M fans, you hope that Tessa's chronic condition is manageable for them to improve and continue until Sochi. For D/W fans, do you secretly wonder if this team has peaked this year - yes they have made significant improvements over the last 2 years - but have they reached their ceiling? Time will tell...

dorispulaski said:

BTW, neither D&W nor V&M are anywhere within shouting distance of Torvill & Dean. They are good and worthy teams, who have each won a world championship, and deserved to win the world championship they won. But T&D, they're not.

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Thank you! I watched the Torville and Dean dance that you posted over on the Saint Patrick's Day thread and all I could think of was, why can't couples dance like this any more?

dorispulaski said:

The one clear advantage that V&M have in Nice is that there is no American judge on the panel. When the scores are as close as they have been between those 2 teams, one judge more or less can make a difference.

The other open question is who is going to be on the tech panel (I don't know yet). That can also make a difference. If it's a relatively easy panel, then it will all come down to PCS, and the PCS marks for the 2 teams have been very, very close all year.

At 4CC's, other than asthma issues for Charlie, the problem in the FD was a low tech call on both their twizzles, and the spin, two skills they have been getting level 4's on all year. I could probably see the spin level, but the twizzle still puzzles me. However, they have had over a month to make sure that however tough the tech panel might be, their levels on the twizzle and the spin should not be a problem (unless they trip or something).

In short, I'm not making any predictions. However, a number of those who have posted on this thread don't seem to recognize that D&W have made a lot of improvements over the last two years. As a result, they are much closer in all ways to V&M than they used to be; additionally, D&W are faster skaters, and that has always counted for a lot; consider the career of Grishuk & Platov.

And, yes, it's the case that V&M have not been able to make the improvements they might have over the last several years because of Tessa's problems with exertional compartment syndrome. That has allowed D&W to catch up.

BTW, neither D&W nor V&M are anywhere within shouting distance of Torvill & Dean. They are good and worthy teams, who have each won a world championship, and deserved to win the world championship they won. But T&D, they're not. T&D could fill an arena in Hungary to watch them skate CD's. Neither V&M nor D&W could do that Klimova & Ponomarenko couldn't do it either. T&D were just unique.

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Great post Doris. Couldn't have said it better myself.

romanoff81 said:

Doris Charlie was off axis on the first set of twizzles same thing happened at nationals but it was not downgraded he really needs to control and reign them in or he will take flight one of these days, the spin was very slow, i also think the tech panel was rather generous with some of the levels of their lifts two of them are rather simple and lifts they have done a million times before so i am not sure if they deserve the highest level.

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Being off axis is not worth a downgrade. What it should effect is the grade of execution:

Here are the current rules for twizzles for level 4:

Different entry edge and different direction of
rotation of the two Twizzles
AND
At least 4 rotations in each of the two Twizzles
AND
OPTION 1
3 different Additional Features from 3
different Groups
OPTION 2
2 different Additional Features from 2 different groups

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D&W do option 1
They had at least 4 turns in each set (6 in the first, 4 in the second).
Charlie had hold of his foot for at least 4 turns in the first set, which is one additional feature (the typical problem he has, if he has one, is catching his foot early enough.
They do a jump into the twizzles, which is the sectond feature.
The third feature is hands behind the back.

The question was whether he lost forward motion in the second set and did a "pirouette". It didn't look in the video I saw like he did.
There also wasn't an extra step between the twizzles.
And neither of them had a full stop before starting twizzling.

On the spin, the question is whether there were enough turns with each "feature" - the spin didn't look right; so I'm figuring the call was correct there.

Again on the lifts, . They haven't been doing those lifts for ever. They do 4 lifts in their FD. The rotational lift with Meryl upright is a variation of an old lift that is new to them this year. The lift with Meryl standing on Charlie's leg was new last year, and they've used it this year again. The curved lift is new this year, but they first showed it in their Adele exhibition this summer, but it's still new this year. The final rotational lift might have also been used in last year's SD, but not before that.


Again, their lifts have all been level 4 all year. Reusing a lift doesn't cause a down level. And V&M have used the final combination lift in Funny Face last year too. Most teams use some of their lifts over, and change some others. P&B have been doing that handstand lift for 6 years.

What determines twhat he levels are for rotational lifts, getting the correct number of rotations, and getting them for the difficult postions, and getting credit for either a difficult entry or exit. For curved and straight line lifts, it's change of positions, difficult positions, and difficult entries or exits. Once you're qualified for level 4, anything creative would add to your GOE perhaps, but sureness of execution, distance travelled in the lift, quickly getting into position, and so forth also count.

If you would like to review D&W's free dance lifts over the years, you will note that they used to do a combination lift, which they didn't do last year or this year, that they used to do a serpentine lift which they no longer use, they only used the Samson & Delilah lift where Charlie is in a back spiral and Meryl jumps onto him once. They also haven't reused the 2 tango lifts, one where Meryl is swinging by her knees, and one in Phantom where Meryl is standing on Charlie's leg while he's gliding backwards.

2007 Polovetsian Dances (Worlds)
Combination LIft (Curved + Rotational LIft)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qunGG8qcdpw#t=1m5s
Straight Line Lift (old standard) Charlie on 2 feet, Meryl sideways kneeling on his feet)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qunGG8qcdpw#t=2m35s
Serpentine Lift-(old standard) Charlie in spread eagle, Meryl leaning back, braced between his legs, change to low position with hair cutter)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qunGG8qcdpw#t=3m5s
Rotational lift, Meryl in stag position, change of position
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qunGG8qcdpw#t=4m25s

2008 Eleanor Rigby
Combination lift - Meryl flips behind Charlie's head, ends up across the front of him, into a rotation (Meryl facing up, horizontal) (Straight Line + Rotational)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzA2cAvQXQo&feature=related#t=0m50s
Straight Line Lift (old standard) Charlie on 2 feet, Meryl sideways kneeling on his feet)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzA2cAvQXQo&feature=related#t=2m38s
Serpentine Lift Charlie in spread eagle, Meryl leaning back, braced between his legs, change to low position with hair cutter)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzA2cAvQXQo&feature=related#t=3m5s
Rotational lift-Meryl in catch foot around Charlie's body, change of position out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzA2cAvQXQo&feature=related#t=4m25s

2009 Samson & Delilah (Worlds)
Combination lift (Meryl pose on Charlie's back, rotates to a front position, than a rotational lift with Meryl going from a high position to a low position while rotating. (Curved + Rotational)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68OsUDopjyQ#t=1m20s
Curved Lift-Charlie in a back spiral, Meryl jumps on this back with her leg curled around his body
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68OsUDopjyQ#t=2m29s
Straight Line Lift-Meryl rotates onto Charlie's back and then rotates back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68OsUDopjyQ#t=3m19s
Rotational lift, Meryl in split, leg on Charlie's shoulder, simple dismount
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68OsUDopjyQ#t=4m19s

2010 Phantom of the Opera (Worlds)
Combination lift-Meryl ends up vertical head down before going into the rotation, exit with Meryl in a lunge (Straight Line + Rotational)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSbp36h6ky8#=t1m35s
Straight Line Lift-Charlie going backward on one foot, Meryl standing on his leg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSbp36h6ky8#t=3m20s
Rotational Lift-Meryl Rotates on Charlie's shoulder, facing upward
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSbp36h6ky8#t=4m30s

2011 Tango (Worlds)
Straight Line Lift-Meryl flips over Charlie's back and ends up aligned along Charlie's leg (him in a back straight line)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8LN0akCSAY#t=1m3s
Curved Lift - Meryl standing on one leg Charlie's thigh, leaning outward (rotate out) (Charlie in spread eagle)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8LN0akCSAY#t=2m34s
Rotational lift where Meryl ends up hanging by her knees, exit in a lunge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8LN0akCSAY#t=3m43s
Rotational lift, Meryl's leg straight over Charlie's shoulder, she's laid out flat along the leg on the shoulder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8LN0akCSAY#t=4m25s

2012 Der Fledermaus (US Nationals)
Straight Line Lift, Rotate around the neck, end up held in an arabesque position
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfr4GAOjRdU#t=1m40s
Rotational lift with Meryl sitting up straight in a split
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfr4GAOjRdU#t=3m5s
Curved Lift -Charlie spread eagle, Meryl leaning out on one foot on his thigh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfr4GAOjRdU#t=4m10s
Rotational lift, change of position
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfr4GAOjRdU#t=5m1s

Generally speaking, neither D&W nor V&M have ever had any problem getting level 4's on their lifts, nor on getting high GOE's for them.

dorispulaski said:

Again, their lifts have all been level 4 all year.

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Cup of Russia, FD

I do believe D and W left some points so they could improve score wise. I won't rehash that I do think V and M are more worthy champions over all - they keep on pushing the sport with different looks and they "own" their programs whereas D and W though their FD really suits them have more limitations - latin themes are not their friends. they would be wonderful show skaters though I admit I think the movement is for D and W; I don't think V and M are getting full credit and I know D and W fans disagree because I think V and M have improved equally to D and W. Regardless these two teams are so far ahead of the others.

silverlake22 said:

D/W will win I'm fairly certain. I think 4CCs result was a fluke. D/W are clearly the stronger team at this point. V/M are more in line with P/B.

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Well I think that V/M are better ice dancers than D/W. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

I think Doris explained this earlier this season — but there are a lot of different Latin dance styles. I agree with Doris who said (please tell me if I'm wrong if it wasn't) that D/W's is more street dance Latin dance while perhaps V/M is a bit more classical with a bit of sauciness.

I think both work given their skill and personalities. And given how close their SD scores have been all season, I think the judges do too. Again, the difference has only been in levels (see GPF for V/M) +GOE on PCS has been on par all season long.

(Which is again why I prefer not to predict who will win).

Not quite. It's a JLo club dance about folks drinking-"put your drink down, get on the floor". Both teams have picked SD music that is more suited to their strengths.

And wouldn't it be stupid if they picked something that played to their weaknesses? OTOH, that's exactly what D&W did last year with Tango.

IP, you're right, I missed that they had one lift downgraded at CoR. OTOH, V&M had lifts downgraded at Canadian Nationals. In general, both teams have little trouble with their lifts.

icefan1005 said:

Well I think that V/M are better ice dancers than D/W. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

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Well, maybe before the injury, but I think during their time off, D/W have managed to pull ahead and really establish themselves as the number 1 team in the World. It doesn't mean V/M can't bounce back and rise to the top, but I don't think it will be this season. Too soon.

Mrs. P, it was jcoates who had that explanation, I believe.

dorispulaski said:

IP, you're right, I missed that they had one lift downgraded at CoR. OTOH, V&M had lifts downgraded at Canadian Nationals. In general, both teams have little trouble with their lifts.

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V/M also had two level two lifts at Finlandia in the SD and FD. My assertion was less about one or the other team than the implicit feeling that because it generally happens, it must always happen. P/B got hammered on levels at the Euros SD, but it was Russian politicking that placed B/S ahead. V/M had a level three lift at Nationals, but that was because the tech specialist is a friend of Meryl's. D/W had issues with levels at 4CC, and that was payback for the GPF computer error (no mention of V/M's levels, which were lower than at the GPF, of course).

silverlake, I agree that D/W have established themselves as the world number one, but I'm a little startled to hear you say that V/M are more on P/B's level. Given how tenous P/B's position actually is seeing the fast rising W/P and the Shibs around them, I completely disagree with that assertion.