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Thread: Ice Dance Preview and Contenders

  1. #16
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    Ice musings will be wrong on his gold medal pick especially since the tech specialist will be canadian again they are strict and pick up on the mistakes and D&W have some that other tech specialists might not give or pick up, and V&M have the more difficult Free dance this year.

  2. #17
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    V&M's dances aren't particularly difficult this year, compared to D&W. They're about the same, as choreographed.

    In fact, all elite skaters plan for everything to be level 4. They just don't always succeed in executing those plans.

  3. #18
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    Doris you are biased and a D&W fan yes it is more difficult especially the free dance go listen to someone neutral like Annick the women from france 3 who analyzes with Condeloro she said it is alot more risky and difficult even Zueva said it in a russian newspaper they also have a higher base value.

  4. #19
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    Doris is just about the fairest poster on GS. Rude labels being tossed at her or anyone else only reveal the actual bias of the person making such accusations. Doris has painstakingly spent this entire season carefully analyzing protocol sheets and videos of all the top dance teams. She has thoroughly educated all of us about what it is that the callers and judges are seeing and why they give the marks they do.

    BTW, she is also a strong fan of V/M. She may prefer D/W, but she is more than mature enough to view both teams critically and to note when one is better than the other.

  5. #20
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    And what makes her an authority or an expert in the matter, i am neutral between both teams but i immediately picked up at the gp final that the canadians free dance was superior technically on all levels i don`t think Scott Moir would have said anything if he didn`t believe that as well and that is not even mentioning their superior latin interpretation and flair, sorry but for me cutesy shimmying to JLO is not latin.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by romanoff81 View Post
    i am neutral between both teams...


    i don`t think Scott Moir would have said anything if he didn`t believe that as well...
    That's two impartial views, so there you go!

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcoates View Post
    Doris is just about the fairest poster on GS. Rude labels being tossed at her or anyone else only reveal the actual bias of the person making such accusations. Doris has painstakingly spent this entire season carefully analyzing protocol sheets and videos of all the top dance teams. She has thoroughly educated all of us about what it is that the callers and judges are seeing and why they give the marks they do.

    BTW, she is also a strong fan of V/M. She may prefer D/W, but she is more than mature enough to view both teams critically and to note when one is better than the other.



    Quote Originally Posted by romanoff81 View Post
    And what makes her an authority or an expert in the matter, i am neutral between both teams but i immediately picked up at the gp final that the canadians free dance was superior technically on all levels i don`t think Scott Moir would have said anything if he didn`t believe that as well and that is not even mentioning their superior latin interpretation and flair, sorry but for me cutesy shimmying to JLO is not latin.
    And what, if I may ask, do you think makes YOU an authority or expert on the matter that you 'could immediately' pick this up? As for what Scott Moir thinks, really who cares what Scot Moir thinks? It's an opinion, like any other, and if anyone might be biased it's the skaters themselves.

  8. #23
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    For one thing, the fact that she does not lash out at other posters in virtually every post she writes makes virtually anything she says far more credible. In additions, Doris backs up her observations with facts, research and decades of experience as not just a fan but a recreational skater herself. She's actually skated CDs, something I can't say. She is more than open to other posters opinions and points of view, so to claim that she is somehow or other in the tank for D/W is ridiculous.

    As to the GPF, the margin was 0.5 points in the FD once the error was accounted for. It was based not on some landslide margin on technical levels, but primarily on the fact the V/M got one more level 4 than D/W. Had that one level been a 4 instead of a 3, D/W would have won the segment. In most cases, the difference of one level on one element between two teams can mean a significant gap by ice dance standards. That fact that that was not the case is indicative of the quality of the execution D/W put forth in that event. BTW, levels are not fixed and their GOE is not necessarily in direct correlation. So it is entirely possible for either team to have more or less level 4s at worlds than they have at previous competitions. Even so, the differenceis likely to come down to GOE along with levels.

    On another note, as has been discussed ad nauseum last fall in many threads on this site, so called latin dance is not some narrow genre of either ballroom or social dancing. It is a very broad range of styles, cultural influences, moods and speeds. The ISU makes no directive in it's rules to give preference to or emphasis on any one type of latin dance. Is V/M's interpretation the most familiar to the contemporary eye? Likely. Should that be be given preferential treatment over other styles? Not according to the rules at hand. You may personally prefer what they are putting out, but personal preference is not a factor in how the ISU has decided these programs should be judged.

    One last point, for anyone who wishes to continue making the argument that D/W are not suited to latin dance specifically due to supposed lack of hip movement, I'd note that they have only done one true latin routine as seniors (this years SD). All three tangos they have performed as seniors (06/07 OD, 09/10 CD, 10/11 FD) technically fall into their ballroom genre as the world of competitive ballroom dance defines it. Tango also involves very little if any of the characteristic hip movement seen in samba, cha cha, meringue etc. So you are judging them based on one true effort at latin and likely on a very narrow perception of what "real" latin dance is.
    Last edited by jcoates; 03-25-2012 at 08:58 PM.

  9. #24
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    In my opinion, there are only 3 teams that capture a real Latin flavour: V/M, C/L and W/P. The performance in these dances is spectacular for all 3 teams. The technical edge goes to V/M. They had some struggles in the SD earlier in the season, and maybe some don't like the cuts/choices they've made. Looking at the 4CC and GPF without the odd fall, the dance is very technically challenging, and their execution of this is very high.

    In my opinion, the FD is between V/M and D/W. I actually like W/P FD better than D/W, but the execution for D/W is higher. I don't understand why people think what V/M are doing isn't difficult. It's tremendously so, and even more that they make it look so effortless. They have a higher base value technically, although both teams are pretty close. I don't think there is much difference on the technical score. As a concept, the program is very original and the concept is followed through in incredible detail all the way through. One does not need to like FF to see the brilliance of the program itself. When it comes to skating skills, interpretation, choreography, performance and execution, etc, V/M are in a league of their own. All the little details are stunning - the hands and fingertips, toe points, synchronization, matching lines and close skating, the head turn and looks, the ability to dance with the whole body, and absolutely embody the characters. The sheer musicality is like none other. They have effortless controlled skating. When I read the rules spelled out in detail by Doris, I see V/M in a league of their own based on the second mark. While D/W have a strong FD, the music really carries them instead of them interpreting the music, they do not have the unison/lines or control or play between the 2 of them. They have speed and power, but it is often on the edge of being uncontrolled. To me, it is not that original, and empty of the details. The music is big and grand, but that does equal a more difficult program. It's the easier road than the level of thought and detail required to make FF work.

  10. #25
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    Base value varies from competition to competition depending on what the skaters execute. In their last two competitions, V/M have had higher base value than D/W in the FD. In their last two competitions, D/W have had higher base value than V/M in the FD.

    And the world still turns.

  11. #26
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    IP thanks for saying so eloquently everything that I thought regarding D&W's program. The music is really grand and more than ever carries them along. I loved their dance when I saw it the first time but it hasnt grown on me at all.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Base value varies from competition to competition depending on what the skaters execute. In their last two competitions, V/M have had higher base value than D/W in the FD. In their last two competitions, D/W have had higher base value than V/M in the FD.

    And the world still turns.
    Sorry if I am missing something ... but was one of these sentences supposed to be about the SD, not FD??? I am confused, unless there is a typo here.

  13. #28
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    I believe IP was merely pointing out that both teams have gone back and forth all season as to who has the higher base value from one competition to the next. In every case, it was an issue of execution lowering the level. All things being equal (including health), both teams are likely to earn all level 4s in major events over the last few years. Earning levels 3s tends to be the exception rather than the rule for both of them.

    BTW, any arguments that their coaches have intentionally given one team or other a "higher base value" are absurd. They have shown the highest professionalism in seeking to give each team the highest technical base and them tailoring the choreography to best highlight each team's strengths and to improve or hide their weaknesses.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by romanoff81 View Post
    And what makes her an authority or an expert in the matter, i am neutral between both teams but i immediately picked up at the gp final that the canadians free dance was superior technically on all levels i don`t think Scott Moir would have said anything if he didn`t believe that as well and that is not even mentioning their superior latin interpretation and flair, sorry but for me cutesy shimmying to JLO is not latin.
    There is nothing neutral in your posts---you have been proclaiming V/M as the far superior team all over this forum.

    And BTW, based on posts by both you and doris, I consider doris an expert when it come to ice dance. She has often gone into great detail when explaining the technical aspects of the compulsory features of the SD. OTOH, all I read from you is V/M gushing and D/W bashing.

  15. #30
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    Yes, I made a typo: D/W have out-BVed V/M in the SD at 4CC (Tessa's twizzle error dropped it from level 4 to 3) and the GPF (Straight level fours for D/W; V/M had level three on all their steps).

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