Wagner skating on a mission, for self and country

Spun Silver · Mar 22, 2012

No, Ashley is not the new GG. Ashley's been competing in seniors for years and has been to Worlds. She is familiar with this unique pressure of The Spots and seems to be saying "Bring it on." She's been in the zone - I just hope she can stay there for nine more days!

sky_fly20 · Mar 22, 2012

Chris_E said:
Pressure that she has put on herself, I would say. Hopefully she can handle it.

well she was able to handle it at nationals by saying its her " gold to lose "
this time its another notch with the whole the 3rd spot is on my shoulder and for my country.

I do admire her hunger and drive
something Alissa never had.

Chris_E · Mar 22, 2012

sky_fly20 said:
well she was able to handle it at nationals by saying its her " gold to lose "
this time its another notch with the whole the 3rd spot is on my shoulder and for my country.

I do admire her hunger and drive
something Alissa never had.

Yes, I certainly hope that she can handle it. If she skates 2 rock solid programs, I don't think the judges can keep her off the podium.

macy · Mar 22, 2012

i wouldn't say it's something alissa never had...she's a quiet person and doesn't have the same personality as ashley. some people keep that stuff more to themselves and between them and their team. i know alissa hasn't had a wonderful season this year, but i can't stand that people are jumping to conclusions already, especially since the challenge cup. yes alissa is known for being inconsistent, but even under her new coaches if she bombs once everyone points the finger. like it's not ever allowed to happen. alissa is a completely different skater than she was before and no one can argue that. just because she has new coaches doesn't make her a MK. i'm sure there were expectations on her at the start of this season because of the success she had last year, but even when she doesn't do well she doesn't just lose it like she did before. have some faith in the girl! the challenge cup was a teeny competition that hardly matters. like in the recent article IN had on jeremy, he said he is right where he wants to be going into worlds even though he didn't do well at the challenge cup either. that being said, i'm hoping and praying both alissa and ashley will both skate well and in turn will get the 3 spots back. i know they both can do it.

ImaginaryPogue · Mar 22, 2012

While I'm not gonna argue that Gold and Wagner are the new other, what both have and are demonstrating this season is confidence and goals. They have both demonstrated a drive to excel, an understanding of what they did wrong in the past to not excel, and the confidence to pull it off. What Wagner is doing is putting pressure on herself with her talk of the third spot (contributing to it's loss, gold is hers to lose, etc), but she seems to using that pressure as fuel, as opposed to looking at it as an impediment. Right now, it's more interesting because it's a bit of a shift from how the American media likes its female athletes: toughness must be hidden, confidence masked, underdogs preferred. Princesses are prefered to queens. I suspect, for example, that a Czisny medal/victory would play more sweetly than a Wagner victory/medal, and I'm not sure that's fair.

R.D. · Mar 22, 2012

Right now, it's more interesting because it's a bit of a shift from how the American media likes its female athletes: toughness must be hidden, confidence masked, underdogs preferred. Princesses are prefered to queens.

I think that view is changing, however. Beginning with the female soccer team at least.

Of course, the very nature of ice skating is "pretty girls in pretty dresses" as Czisny put it, so it might take a little longer for the culture change to hit there, but in order to get change, you need to have someone different and willing to challenge the norm. I see Wagner as one of those people, and if she remains relevant up to Sochi, I think you might see a few take advantage of/try to market her athleticism as opposed to glamoring her up for a model shoot...

I suspect, for example, that a Czisny medal/victory would play more sweetly than a Wagner victory/medal, and I'm not sure that's fair.

You know what...I think you're right. I never really thought about this, but yes...now that you mention it, I bet even USFS themselves would prefer a Czisny to a Wagner to be "the face" of American skating.

Only thing is for Wagner (and Gold) to have that attitude AND be widely successful (imagine, if she simply picks up any medal at worlds it will be the first for US women since 2006- already headline-worthy) and I'm sure it will trickle down. We're still in the aftermath of soft-spoken, unassuming Kwan, so until we get a new (different) face, that's going to be the "expectation" of the media...

skateluvr · Mar 22, 2012

MK unassuming? Which Michelle is that? This is someone who booed lower marks with thumbs down. She is a warrior. Put a samurai sword in her hand and 10 men opposite. I bet on MK to be the last one standing, LOL I like that image!

Spun Silver · Mar 22, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
...it's a bit of a shift from how the American media likes its female athletes: toughness must be hidden, confidence masked, underdogs preferred. Princesses are prefered to queens. I suspect, for example, that a Czisny medal/victory would play more sweetly than a Wagner victory/medal, and I'm not sure that's fair.

I think you're underestimating the American media. They're hardly walled off from the rest of the culture and Ashley's story is playing pretty well so far. Americans like underdogs, winners, second chances, rags to riches stories, gender-benders, stereotype-breakers, good rivalries -- and did I say winners? A dominant Ashley who has the energy to reshape the way people see skating will make a much more interesting story than a pretty but fragile and aging Alissa. Anyway, Ashley can do pretty too, FWIW (see her Somewhere in Time program--no problem).

What the media would like best right now, IMO, is a great rivalry. I'm not sure Alissa will be around much longer to provide that. Maybe Ashley-Gracie, or one of the above vs. a resurgent Mirai.

ImaginaryPogue · Mar 22, 2012

Spun Silver said:
I think you're underestimating the American media. They're hardly walled off from the rest of the culture and Ashley's story is playing pretty well so far. Americans like underdogs, winners, second chances, rags to riches stories, gender-benders, stereotype-breakers, good rivalries -- and did I say winners? A dominant Ashley who has the energy to reshape the way people see skating will make a much more interesting story than a pretty but fragile and aging Alissa. Anyway, Ashley can do pretty too, FWIW (see her Somewhere in Time program--no problem).

What the media would like best right now, IMO, is a great rivalry. I'm not sure Alissa will be around much longer to provide that. Maybe Ashley-Gracie, or one of the above vs. a resurgent Mirai.

They like gender-benders and stereotype breakers? If this is indeed true, then yes - I've definitely underestimated the American media.

skateflower · Mar 23, 2012

sky_fly20 said:
well she was able to handle it at nationals by saying its her " gold to lose "
this time its another notch with the whole the 3rd spot is on my shoulder and for my country.

I do admire her hunger and drive
something Alissa never had.

Alissa's jump technique is deeply flawed. Bad technique won't miraculously enable you to land jumps consistently. Hunger and drive can only lead you so far.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 23, 2012

skateflower said:
Alissa's jump technique is deeply flawed. Bad technique won't miraculously enable you to land jumps consistently. Hunger and drive can only lead you so far.

I was actually very surprised when she would have periods of consistency because her technique looks so shaky, but she can get it done. Hopefully being in Ashley's shadow a bit can take some pressure off and she can deliver a couple of nice programs. I'm very hopeful the two of them can get the job done.

Jammers · Mar 23, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
While I'm not gonna argue that Gold and Wagner are the new other, what both have and are demonstrating this season is confidence and goals. They have both demonstrated a drive to excel, an understanding of what they did wrong in the past to not excel, and the confidence to pull it off. What Wagner is doing is putting pressure on herself with her talk of the third spot (contributing to it's loss, gold is hers to lose, etc), but she seems to using that pressure as fuel, as opposed to looking at it as an impediment. Right now, it's more interesting because it's a bit of a shift from how the American media likes its female athletes: toughness must be hidden, confidence masked, underdogs preferred. Princesses are prefered to queens. I suspect, for example, that a Czisny medal/victory would play more sweetly than a Wagner victory/medal, and I'm not sure that's fair.

Michelle was as tough a skater during her time as anyone and she certainly came off as someone confident in her abilities yet i i seem to remember the American media loving her win or lose.

R.D. · Mar 23, 2012

Yeah, but they loved Miss "I Just Want To Skate My Best"...

Good for Wagner (and a couple others) for not serving up the same BS, for the most part.

lowtherlore · Mar 23, 2012

Wagner comes across as a motivated and levelheaded person. She looks fitter than ever and I think she will do well at worlds if she can maintain her calm as well as her spirits.

ImaginaryPogue · Mar 23, 2012

Jammers said:
Michelle was as tough a skater during her time as anyone and she certainly came off as someone confident in her abilities yet i i seem to remember the American media loving her win or lose.

Yeah, but they also loved Tara Lipinski and Sarah Hughes for beating her; they also fell for her when she was a cute princess, not as the Kween. A dominant American athlete certainly is a great media hook, though.

noidont · Mar 23, 2012

No need to overestimate the American media. They love a winner. When they don't have one, they look for personal narratives. Alissa, Mirai and Rachel Flatt all figured out one. Ashley should soon. (I mean, always getting beaten until now isn't really a narrative.) I guess "fighting solo for american" could work, if she manages to do it when Alissa bombs hard (say Wagner 3rd, Czisny 10th..)

Skater Boy · Mar 23, 2012

Not sure if 10th is falling hard - maybe 16th but Alyssa's scores or rather pcs seem to be high even when she falls apart. Though I do find a lack of a dynamic program when she falls apart. But Wagner just needs to focus on herself and let Alyssa do what she needs to do. If Alyssa and Ashley or A squared skate cleanly I think Alyssa might win but that is just a guess.

Jammers · Mar 23, 2012

Michael Jordan was never an underdog and the media loved him too. Yes we like the underdog story here in the US but so do most people actually.

kwanatic · Mar 23, 2012

Skater Boy said:
Not sure if 10th is falling hard - maybe 16th but Alyssa's scores or rather pcs seem to be high even when she falls apart. Though I do find a lack of a dynamic program when she falls apart. But Wagner just needs to focus on herself and let Alyssa do what she needs to do. If Alyssa and Ashley or A squared skate cleanly I think Alyssa might win but that is just a guess.

Now that Ashley has earned the respect from the judges, I can't see a clean Alissa beating a clean Ashley. Only way that would work is if Alissa's 3lz-3t and 2a-3t somehow materializes and she nails everything else as well.

I love Alissa's smooth style and elegant presentation but she's just too soft. I love her SP but her LP is a empty and a bit of a snoozer, whereas Ashley's SP is light and upbeat and her LP is dynamic and full of energy...she'll outshine Alissa easily. Alissa has beautiful presentation on the ice and some of the best spins around BUT her technical content and the impact of her skating (ie. the impression she leaves on the ice) can't touch what Ashley's been doing this season. Because Ashley skates with speed and power and her programs are well put together and well-skated she leaves a much bigger and lasting impression with her performances. I just can't see Alissa matching her.

Chris_E · Mar 23, 2012

kwanatic said:
Now that Ashley has earned the respect from the judges, I can't see a clean Alissa beating a clean Ashley. Only way that would work is if Alissa's 3lz-3t and 2a-3t somehow materializes and she nails everything else as well.

I love Alissa's smooth style and elegant presentation but she's just too soft. I love her SP but her LP is a empty and a bit of a snoozer, whereas Ashley's SP is light and upbeat and her LP is dynamic and full of energy...she'll outshine Alissa easily. Alissa has beautiful presentation on the ice and some of the best spins around BUT her technical content and the impact of her skating (ie. the impression she leaves on the ice) can't touch what Ashley's been doing this season. Because Ashley skates with speed and power and her programs are well put together and well-skated she leaves a much bigger and lasting impression with her performances. I just can't see Alissa matching her.

I completely agree with you. Ashley has the momentum at this point and has been skating with much more confidence and attack than Alissa is capable of and that SHOULD be rewarded.

Wagner skating on a mission, for self and country

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