Radio interview with Alexander Lakernik, posted on FSU | Golden Skate

Radio interview with Alexander Lakernik, posted on FSU

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is a partial translation by poster quiqui on FSU of a wide-ranging radio interview with Alexander Lakernik, chairman of the ISU technical committee. He takes on such questions as, "Has the USFSA ditched Czisny for Wagner," and whether Aliona Savchenko was really injured or just scared to compete, and "should a fall on a quad be worth as much as a triple Lutz."


http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83037
 

Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
Interesting that he brought up Chan as an example of reputation PCS (without arguing for this opionion) but not Plushenko for high scores on admittedly non existent Transition.

Why was he asked if USFSA has ditched Czisny for Wagner?

Why was he even making comments on specific skaters a week before the World Championships?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Why was he asked if USFSA has ditched Czisny for Wagner?

Why was he even making comments on specific skaters a week before the World Championships?

My impression is that these Russian radio and TV interviewers try to provoke their guests into making controversial comments. It's good radio, I guess. Conversely, Russian skating officials do not seem to care much about being politically correct in interviews.

I do not even know what "ditching Czisny for Wagner" means. Is the idea that the USFSA is flexing its political muscle on behalf of Wagner and telling international judges, forget Alissa, if you want to curry favor with us, vote for Ashley instead. The whole thing seems an attempt to word the question in a provocative way just for dramatic effect.

I was interested in Lakernik's views about the relative value of a quad with a fall versus a good triple Lutz. But again -- Lakernik, as chairman of the technical committee, has more control over things like that than anyone else. Why complain on the radio when you have the power actually to do something about it?
 

Buttercup

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Mar 25, 2008
Lakernik probably was not asked about Plushenko's PCS, and it's not like he opined about every skater's PCS and whether they were merited or not. He did discuss Plushenko's scoring at the Olympics and noted that his LP was front-loaded. OTOH, he cannot discuss Plkushenko in the context of a skater making mistakes and still getting huge scores, because Plushenko doesn't make many mistakes. Training with Mishin has its advantages.

Though I share some of his views, I agree that someone in his position should not be commenting about active skaters, certainly not so close to Worlds.
 
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skateflower

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Nov 5, 2011
Judges and technical specialists are corrupt. The difference is that corrupt Russian judges put it out in the open, while western judges always try to be politically correct.
 

evangeline

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Nov 7, 2007
I'm glad that at least someone on the tech committee is echoing the concerns some fans have regarding PCS (e.g. regarding Sui/Han, etc). Hopefully this will filter down to the judges sooner than later.
 

seniorita

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Jun 3, 2008
Judges and technical specialists are corrupt. The difference is that corrupt Russian judges put it out in the open, while western judges always try to be politically correct.

I guess Mr Inman with putting it out in the open 3 weeks before Olympics is Russian then...:rolleye:
---

The most interesting part was him speaking about corridor and what happens when judges mark out of it. I think it was enlighting in regards to reputation and under/overscored skaters if they all try to stay in the corridor. But I dont know how wide the corridor is.

As for S/S I believe she was injured for Euros and the only reason they didnt withdraw before Euros but went to Sheffield even for a day is because there would be no quetsions about her injury and they could skate to AOI tour which was right after Euros with no penalty
 
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ImaginaryPogue

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Jun 3, 2009
I dunno, seniorita. Inman sent his comments to other judges and the email was leaked to the media, as I understand it. Lakernik did this in an interview with the press. I'd argue that the latter intended a more open forum.

Not that neither Inman nor Lakernik are inherently wrong in their comments.
 

let`s talk

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Sep 10, 2009
Interesting that he brought up Chan as an example of reputation PCS (without arguing for this opionion) but not Plushenko for high scores on admittedly non existent Transition.
Plushenko is not a zamboni and never was. He didn't have a habit to win with multiple falls and get the highest PCS for such a performance. So it's quite natural that Lakernik didn't bring it up since there was nothing of the same nature to bring up.
Why was he asked if USFSA has ditched Czisny for Wagner?
I didn't read the long translation because I listened to the radio program in Russian a couple of days ago when it showed up. I don't know if the word "ditch" is the right one in the translation or not. The person who asked him meant that now USFSA is focusing on Wagner rather than on Alissa in promoting her as a new female skater-star.
Why was he even making comments on specific skaters a week before the World Championships?
Mr. Inman is not the only one who is allowed to talk. It set the tone. Enjoy the result. A little strange to see how you are advocating against double standards while using the ones yourself.
 

Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
Plushenko is not a zamboni and never was. He didn't have a habit to win with multiple falls and get the highest PCS for such a performance. So it's quite natural that Lakernik didn't bring it up since there was nothing of the same nature to bring up.

He brought up Chan voluntarily in the context of reputation scoring:

Like with Chan, let's take him as the more glaring example, judges had this idea that he is the best thing in figure skating, and they give him PCS accordingly. We have to deal with it.

The implication, which Mr. Lakernik did not support with elaborations, seems to be that judges have wrong "idea" about Chan's skating/PCS. He may subjectively disagree with judges' views but giving out high marks on non existing Transition seems a lot more objectionable and a much more appropriate and glaring example of reputation judging.

I didn't read the long translation because I listened to the radio program in Russian a couple of days ago when it showed up. I don't know if the word "ditch" is the right one in the translation or not. The person who asked him meant that now USFSA is focusing on Wagner rather than on Alissa in promoting her as a new female skater-star.

Nobody but the USFSA principals is in a position to answer such a question on such an assumption, however it was phrased. Wagner simply won her right to compete at Worlds.

Mr. Inman is not the only one who is allowed to talk. It set the tone. Enjoy the result. A little strange to see how you are advocating against double standards while using the ones yourself.

I will be happy to answer any question you have on my stand on Mr. Inman if you can give me a quote or paraphrase I have ever expressed on this matter instead of any assumption.

Independent of that, I find Mr. Lakernik's public expressions of his personal opinions on specific competing skaters mere days ahead of the World Championships extremely inappropriate, prejudicial, and professionally unethical, especially since he will be on the Technical Panel of the event. With his position in the ISU, he should be raising his concerns and advocating any change within the organization during the off season.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I wish it were possible to discuss some of these issues without bringing particular skaters into it.

I don't think Joe Inman's intent was to rag on Plushenko and Joubert. It just happened that a casual joke by Plushenko provided Inman with the opportunity to raise the issue. (The joke was, Plushenko said something like, "How come Joubert got higher transition scores than me? We both had the same transitions -- none." ;) )

I do not even think that Inman was referring to reputation judging. Rather, the point was that judges were not applying the specific written criteria for transitions but just lumping it together with Skating Skills. This is a matter worth discussing, without the need for bringing any specific skaters into the conversation.

Nobody but the USFSA principals is in a position to answer such a question on such an assumption (about Wagner and Czisny), however it was phrased.

That is what attracted my interest. Everyone likes a good conspiracy. It is widely believed that national federations invest a lot of effort in promoting the fortunes of their skaters in international competitions (cozying up to judges, etc.) Mr. Lakernik might well be in a position to know about a sea change on the part of USFSA lobbyists first hand. Maybe someone in the USFSA gave him a nudge and a wink and said, "Did you notice how Wagner doesn't double-foot her jumps any more?"
 
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Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
Plushenko was not "joking" but was complaining to the media, unaware that he would be providing Inman with substantiating quote to back his observation and opinion.

So who are those lobbyists for the federations? Are they just good nudgers and winkers? Wouldn't they be the ones doing this kind of interviews before major events? If conspiracists are to be believed, Skate Canada's lobbyists should have been snatched up by the world's biggest governments and corporations already. Well, maybe not, seeing what a poor job they have been doing for the Canadian Ladies.
 

seniorita

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Jun 3, 2008
^ The only media who wrote what Plu said was a report from AbsoluteSkating site of a show press conference in SLovakia right after Euros. All the rest used this article as a source. I m 100% sure he talked about it but I ve never seen a script of this conference nor a video to see in what context he did. But the point is not what a skater thinks of his marks, did Inman need a skater's quote to back up his observation? And by the way, it is not that he re-invented fire with what he wrote...
I dunno, seniorita. Inman sent his comments to other judges and the email was leaked to the media, as I understand it. Lakernik did this in an interview with the press. I'd argue that the latter intended a more open forum.
Not that neither Inman nor Lakernik are inherently wrong in their comments.

I would argue only that if you send an email with your concern to 60 people, yes it might be leaked. Isnt it just strange that you havent seen before or after any judge's email on the press? Just one in fs history and just in the olympic year? Dont judges send emails anymore, they send sms? :)
They could have both said their concerns without mentioning specific skaters either before Worlds or Olys, skaters who are competing. I didnt mind their opinions who are both correct but I thought the timing was wrong, if you want to alarm judges to mark correctly hold a seminar (I know he does anyway), CoP is 7 years old and they are many examples to make your point from past skaters.
 

Buttercup

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Mar 25, 2008
Plushenko was not "joking" but was complaining to the media, unaware that he would be providing Inman with substantiating quote to back his observation and opinion.
You seem very familiar with the Bratislava press conference; maybe you could provide some additional insight into Plushenko's comments? Titanilla Bod wasn't really clear about that in the AS article that Inman referred to, and she never really revisited the subject - so who knows what tone Plushenko used or what exactly he meant, right?

What all this has to do with Lakernik's interview, I'm sure I don't know.
 

Violet Bliss

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Nov 19, 2010
I think Plushenko didn't take COP seriously before the Olympics and his point was that both he and Joubert focused on the quads, thus excusably without transition. He has since changed his attitude, which cost him an OGM, and has focused much more on COP compliant and friendly skills and choreography in preparation for his new comeback.

I agree the timing and the naming of skaters were not appropriate in both cases. However, in Inman's case, Plushenko provided him with the irresistibly and perfectly timed perfect quote to back up his points.
 

ciocio

On the Ice
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Sep 27, 2010
I agree the timing and the naming of skaters were not appropriate in both cases. However, in Inman's case, Plushenko provided him with the irresistibly and perfectly timed perfect quote to back up his points.

Absolute Skating did, not Plushenko. I've read some interviews where he was talking about the transitions and in none on them appeared such a statement, that Joubert and him have no transitions at all. Plushenko did a huge mistake, though, he did not asked the AS journalist to provide the tape of the press conference. I believe the AS journalist wasn't alone at the press conference.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
About the reference to Patrick Chan, the context was the difficulty in judging program components objectively.

Lakernik said:
And technical mark doesn't depend on reputation, it's objective, and neither do GOE, maybe minimally. But PCS are another thing, there is a lot of work to do, to explain, to teach, but it's not easy, it's psychological thing. Like with Chan...

To me the important question is not "reputation" -- that will always be with us. Skaters who skate well will acquire a reputation for skating well.

But besides the issue of subjectivity in scoring program components, there is also the matter of whether technical miscues on elements should rightly detract from whole program categories like skating skills and choreography. In Chan's three Grand Prix appearances, plus Four Continents, his TES ranged from 72.30 (Eric Bompard -- several major errors) to 95.83 (4CC -- virtually flawless). But there was only a 5 point swing in the PCSs, in four performancances of fairly wide overall quality.

Is this the way we want the CoP to work?

I think it can be argued both ways. We can say, yes, the technical elements are completely separate from the components. A skater might fall on every jump but still interpret the heck out of the music.

Or, we can say the the elements are an integral part of the program. The program cannot be considered outstanding if it is flawed by faulty technique on the highlight elements.

"A lot of work to do, to explain, to teach; it's not easy" to achieve a satisfactory consensus and get ell the judges on board.
 
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gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
To me the important question is not "reputation" -- that will always be with us. Skaters who skate well will acquire a reputation for skating well.

Yup. :)

ut besides the issue of subjectivity in scoring program components, there is also the matter of whether technical miscues on elements should rightly detract from whole program categories like skating skills and choreography. In Chan's three Grand Prix appearances, plus Four Continents, his TES ranged from 72.30 (Eric Bompard -- several major errors) to 95.83 (4CC -- virtually flawless). But there was only a 5 point swing in the PCSs, in four performancances of fairly wide overall quality.

Is this the way we want the CoP to work?

I think it can be argued both ways. We can say, yes, the technical elements are completely separate from the components. A skater might fall on every jump but still interpret the heck out of the music.

Or, we can say the the elements are an integral part of the program. The program cannot be considered outstanding if it is flawed by faulty technique on the highlight elements.

I would argue on the side of the former approach -- that components should be judged independently from the elements.

Actually, I don't think it's completely an either/or choice -- I think there is a middle ground within which the success of the elements can and should indeed affect the component scores to the degree that they actually affect the judges' perceptions of how well the skater performed on each of the criteria for each of the components on that particular occasion.

I just don't think that there is a direct and inevitable correlation between the number of grossly visible errors and the quality of the overall performance, even for the same skater and the same program. Let the judges judge this performance, not the skater's reputation, and not some predetermined template for how much to reduce the score that the judge would otherwise give that performance on each component based on specific kinds of errors (and not other kinds of errors).

For example (judged under 6.0, so the actual scores would be meaningless, but the principle is the same), I competed my program twice in the past couple months.

The first time I landed all the jumps successfully, although some of the landings were not as strong as they should be (-1). There were some little problems with a spin and a step that would have been invisible to a casual observer. But a lot of the time I was just focused on skating clean and not presenting or interpreting the program as well as I could.

The second time I had a disruptive (non-fall) error on my opening jump combination (-2 or -3), and a shakier landing that the last time on the second jump (-1 or -2). Casual observers would have noticed these errors. But after that I relaxed and performed the rest of the program better.

So even though there were more obvious mistakes in the second performance, I think that performance also would have deserved higher component scores, especially interpretation.
 
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