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Thread: The Short Dance & the Golden Waltz-SD Year 1

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The Short Dance & the Golden Waltz-SD Year 1

    I'll start this with a run down of the senior SD
    This and the following couple posts were made in the Nebelhorn thread. I thought the subject might be of interest in general, so I copied it to the Edge, and am using the posts to start a new thread.

    Now that we've seen quite a few SD's, what are your thoughts?:

    A perusal of the senior SD description in the ISU documentation shows that teams need to pay close attention to the following sections of the Golden Waltz,
    http://www.ice-dance.com/images/stor...oldenWaltz.pdf
    because performing each of these step sequencess correctly, according to the guidelines, gives you one level:

    Here's the link to the ISU Communication 1621, which contains the Short Dance guidelines:
    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1893

    The levels in the first section of the GW are based on:
    1. Man's and Lady's steps 1 -4 (walk around three turns)
    2. Man's step 15, cross behind followed by left forward inside edge, open Mohawk
    3. Lady's step 15, cross behind followed by a left forward inside edge into a bracket
    4. Lady's step 21, the Shoot the Duck and left forward outside three turn, ending with front coupees. The lady must have both her skating leg thigh and free leg "at least" parallel to the ice, straight and extended forward.


    The levels in Section 2 of the GW are based on:

    1. Man's steps 26a-2c, the part that includes the man doing a pivot and a spread eagle.
    2. Lady's steps 30b (the twizzles & the layback position)
    3. Both man & lady, steps 34-35, with the swing open Choctaw
    4. Both man & lady, steps 39-40, which includes a left front inside Open Choctaw.

    The requirements are very picky in the second section, generally about exactly prescribing the position in the layback & foot placement in the Choctaws. They also require you to hit the edges required, which I don't think is picky, but isn't necessarily easy.

    They are also picky in the first section (which teams did better on at Nebelhorn), particularly where the lady has to have both her thigh and leg parallel (not just almost parallel, as in previous year's decriptions) to the ice in the shoot the duck step (step 21), so getting level 4 there is not a gimme.

    I tried rewatching V&M's, F&S's, P&B's, and D&W's GW from Worlds last year, but the camera work was so bad, it was really hard to tell how their levels should be placed using this year's criteria.

    I think teams need to pick the GW part of their music very, very carefully, so that it helps them as much as possible.

    Getting level 4 in both segments gives you 14 points in base value. 6 points for the first section, 8 points for the second section.

    Level 1 in the second section is only 3.5, Level2 is the lowest seen so far on the first section, and that's 4.0. So you are conceivably looking at 6.5 points difference there for the GW segments, if a team is not careful & accurate with them

    That said, it's a compulsory dance. All the senior teams should be able to perform it correctly, so I am not in the least offended that highly ranked teams are getting dinged for doing it wrong. And it is consistent with COP that technical level is dependent on did you do the the thing correctly, and GOE is did you do it well? They are not the same things.

    Here's Natalie's & Fabian's SD from Nebelhorn. They did section2 prior to section 1. (Section 2 is the section that they were given only a Level 1 for)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_uqh0_J93Y

    While it is easy to spot the 1st section (about 1:35 to 2:12) the second section is not as clear. And I expect for sure they got dinged for the Lady's twizzle/layback step. Natalie kind of jumped her twizzles, and the layback wasn't all that stable. Perhaps Fabian's toe pick didn't pick in properly in the spread eagle step. It's hard for me to tell, because the view is partially obstructed. However, I'm not spotting anything all that wrong with either of the choctaw steps, so I can't tell you why they got level 1 rather than level2.

    As to GOE, that applies to all the steps, not just the 8 sections included for tech level.

    Zhiganshina & Gaszi (GER) got level 4's for both GW sequences in their Cirque du Soleil SD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKLeqwcD710

    This shows that you can do a dance technically correctly without doing it well enough to score huge GOE in the current COP SD format.

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    Have no problem with P&B not winning the SD as their performance was very sloppy (he appeared to slip at least 3 times) and looked relatively poorly trained compared to their FD. Think they were blindsided by the strictness of the new rules. But other than what the Germans were marked on the 8 elements, their overall program was awful IMO. In talking to many ice dancers and coaches recently regarding the new rules, almost all of them said they had in some ways to re-learn the GW because previously they were judged largely on the overall presentation more than exactness of the placement of foot or how parallel (45 degrees) the lady was to the ice in the shoot the duck move, etc. Also more power is in the hands of the Tech Controller in the SD because of the amount of points won or lost iin these 8 elements. I am not a proponent of the SD because I think very few teams will be able to mesh a strict CD with another rhythm and make it entertaining to the public, which also means TV is unlikely to cover it. The Italian team here did a pretty good job and duly won the SD but their two rhythms are not so different. The ISU also does not have a good number of CDs that are either interesting or difficult enough to use for more than a couple of years.

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    Have no problem with P&B not winning the SD as their performance was very sloppy (he appeared to slip at least 3 times) and looked relatively poorly trained compared to their FD. Think they were blindsided by the strictness of the new rules. But other than what the Germans were marked on the 8 elements, their overall program was awful IMO. In talking to many ice dancers and coaches recently regarding the new rules, almost all of them said they had in some ways to re-learn the GW because previously they were judged largely on the overall presentation more than exactness of the placement of foot or how parallel (45 degrees) the lady was to the ice in the shoot the duck move, etc. Also more power is in the hands of the Tech Controller in the SD because of the amount of points won or lost iin these 8 elements. I am not a proponent of the SD because I think very few teams will be able to mesh a strict CD with another rhythm and make it entertaining to the public, which also means TV is unlikely to cover it. The Italian team here did a pretty good job and duly won the SD but their two rhythms are not so different. The ISU also does not have a good number of CDs that are either interesting or difficult enough to use for more than a couple of years.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Then they will repeat.
    I'm expecting to see the Tango Romantica, the Yankee Polka, and hoping for the introduction of the Rhumba d'Amour. Perhaps they will use the Midnight Blues as well. If so, that's 5, including the GW, that they can use in rotation while they think of what to do in other years.

    I totally agree with you about teams having to relearn parts of the GW-however, if you are going to have a compulsory, it should be how it is performed that is compulsory, very like compulsory dives, for example, IMO. And teams can't say they were blind sided exactly--it was explicit in the rules.

    Sinicyn was able to read the rules, and hence his teams, Z&G and M&N, scored quite well in the GW segments. Other coaches and teams with more talent could certainly have done the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Then they will repeat.
    I'm expecting to see the Tango Romantica, the Yankee Polka, and hoping for the introduction of the Rhumba d'Amour. Perhaps they will use the Midnight Blues as well. If so, that's 5, including the GW, that they can use in rotation while they think of what to do in other years.
    You may be the only person to want to see the Yankee Polka again - one Kilian hold after another. The ISU already tanked T&D's rhumba. It's 1 1/2 pattern would take almost the entire SD so they would have to totally re-choreograph it. The Midnight Blues has too many toe steps and stops.

    I totally agree with you about teams having to relearn parts of the GW-however, if you are going to have a compulsory, it should be how it is performed that is compulsory, very like compulsory dives, for example, IMO. And teams can't say they were blind sided exactly--it was explicit in the rules.
    But other than the GW and Tango Romantica, most of the other Senior dances are pretty boring or not difficult enough. So they repeat GW and TR over and over? Talk about limiting creativity. I give the SD 2 years to go back to the OD.

    Sinicyn was able to read the rules, and hence his teams, Z&G and M&N, scored quite well in the GW segments. Other coaches and teams with more talent could certainly have done the same.
    Not saying dancers/coaches can't read rules, just saying that P&B just didn't realize how strict the controller would be re rules. After all the same thing happened at Lake Placid but our skaters were warned.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    While P&B may not have realized how strict the controller would be, nonetheless their coach should have realized it. Fortunately, they found out in a non GP event.

    There is no reason the R d'A (one repetition only, not 1 1/2 repetitions) wouldn't work in the SD format-just make the SD a little longer than this year, leaving the creative segment the same length as this year. That would give you a Latin OD.

    And while you find the YP boring, I think it would be fine if the teams could pick their own music, it's limited to one repetition, and its paired with a non polka rhythm, so the teams have the option of doing a non-folk section. It certainly would be no worse than the Viennese waltz they are using in Jrs this year. Polka/waltz worked quite well for the 2003 OD's (check Winkler/Lohse's OD). That way some of the SD's would be "grand ballroom" type, and some folk dances, which would be a decent variety.

    While not a fan of the tango, the TR will be fine.

    It would be nice to have a blues based SD, just for the variety of rhythms, year over year.

    I think the Midnight would be OK, given the freedom of choice of music for the SD format. Here's N&K's winning MN CD from Worlds 2004:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDyb-fM61Ns

    The music the committee chose for the MN is relatively awful, but there is a lot of great blues music out there.

    Finally, the Finnstep is very difficult, and Quickstep is not in general, a boring dance.

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    The choreography of that dance is no more Blues-like than that cheesy music..I think if they're going to use blues , they ought to ask Shae to re-choreograph it..
    well, or Chris Dean..

    Anyway , thanks for that breakdown post on the SD, Doris. I'm going to find it an invaluable reference through the season, I'm sure.. maybe I won't have to be sitting there scratching my head as much as I've been expecting to.

    I agree the Finnstep could be fun.

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    Thanks so much Doris for such a delightful post about what to look for in the Golden Waltz patterns now in the Short dance. I agree it's great that technique in the steps has received a big push in the judging. This should have been done from the beginning of COP.

    That being said.. I dont think the patters are working quite well within the overall presentationof the SD, they consume soo much time and Im always thinking: "Get over with it soon so I can see your choreo and what your program really looks like" but there's hardly any time to do anything.

    I also think this new format is failing at its main goal which was to make Ice Dance easier to follow for TV audiences. The fun and originality of, well, the Original Dance is sadly gone.

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    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    The Short Dance: Year 1

    I had originally wanted to necropost Doris' thread on the Short Dance, but was unable to. If you want to view it for reference, here it is:

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...ing-its-future

    Since we are only one month away from the World Championships, I wanted to see what people's thoughts were on the newest "big change" in skating--the short dance. What worked/did not work? What was an improvement upon the original format (CD/OD)?

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    What worked: the golden waltz as a method of differentiating the good skaters from the great skaters.

    What didn't work: everything else

    What bugs me: I don't know the point of the CD other than to have a short and long dance separation

    What was an improvement over the original format: Nothing.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Blue dog, if you like, I can copy the whole old thread into this thread. However, that will put all the old posts on top and the new on the bottom, including your header, so I'm leaving it as is.

    I hate the SD with a deadly hate, guaranteed to kill cobras with just a flick of my eyes. I loved the old OD and the old OSP. I liked the CD's too. The SD no!!!!!!

    The first thing that didn't work was allowing the waltz to be combined with a tango. Well, it doesn't work. It doesn't work when V&M do a perky unangsty tango with a waltz. It doesn't work when I&K do an angsty, angsty waltz with a tango. It doesn't work when P&I do the GW to a tango. It just doesn't work. Let's keep it single rhythm next time, if no one can persuade the ISU to just do away with the CD part altogether and go back to the OD's with no CD's. (I didn't mind the quickstep/waltz combos very much though).

    Just skating 2 circuits of the GW would separate the good from bad skaters (CD hint hint). One thing that could be learned from the SD experience is that no one will die if the skaters are allowed to pick their own waltz music, provided the waltz has the right tempo, and the CD would have been lots more interesting in the past if we hadn't had to hear the ISU's dreadful 4 selections cycled over and over.

    Another thing that didn't work very well was lasering in on 4 choctaw heel positions, a spread eagle/pivot, a shoot the duck, a back dip and walk around 3's. There are other steps in that dance. quite a few of them The level calls were not very uniform between committees at all. training issues, I guess?

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    Great thread!

    What worked: the idea that skaters will be judged in a uniform fashion, using technical callers. What didn't work about the CD is that it was always difficult to know exactly what the judges would be looking for from competition to competition, or even within the same competition sometimes. There was too much room for reputation and politics judging. With the SD, now we all know, sort of.

    What didn't work: it was all very rigid and contrived. I would like it much better if there was a narrow theme with some specific standard requirements, but not necessarily the set patterns of the CD. The callers would still have specific elements (ie. lift, twizzle, step, some kind of pattern), and the judges could judge according to how well the team captured the style of the set theme, etc. I don't like the mash-up of 2 styles in the same dance. Just pick one and explore it. I find the requirement to do a straight-line non-touching step sequence just silly. Any high quality step sequence that fit the theme of the dance should do.

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    I was hoping someone would bring this up now that the season is almost over, so thanks!!

    I really dislike the SD and prefer the OD. With all the required elements and patterns there is very little time or energy left for creativity and originality. And I agree that mixing tango and waltz just didn't cut it. Some of the music choices really fit the GW (D/W, C/Z) and some music choices (C/P) left me confused as to what they were thinking. I already shudder at what next year will bring.

    But I think we are going to be stuck with this concept because the federations and skaters seem to like only having 2 events in the competitions.

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