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Thread: The Short Dance & the Golden Waltz-SD Year 1

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The Short Dance & the Golden Waltz-SD Year 1

    I'll start this with a run down of the senior SD
    This and the following couple posts were made in the Nebelhorn thread. I thought the subject might be of interest in general, so I copied it to the Edge, and am using the posts to start a new thread.

    Now that we've seen quite a few SD's, what are your thoughts?:

    A perusal of the senior SD description in the ISU documentation shows that teams need to pay close attention to the following sections of the Golden Waltz,
    http://www.ice-dance.com/images/stor...oldenWaltz.pdf
    because performing each of these step sequencess correctly, according to the guidelines, gives you one level:

    Here's the link to the ISU Communication 1621, which contains the Short Dance guidelines:
    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1893

    The levels in the first section of the GW are based on:
    1. Man's and Lady's steps 1 -4 (walk around three turns)
    2. Man's step 15, cross behind followed by left forward inside edge, open Mohawk
    3. Lady's step 15, cross behind followed by a left forward inside edge into a bracket
    4. Lady's step 21, the Shoot the Duck and left forward outside three turn, ending with front coupees. The lady must have both her skating leg thigh and free leg "at least" parallel to the ice, straight and extended forward.


    The levels in Section 2 of the GW are based on:

    1. Man's steps 26a-2c, the part that includes the man doing a pivot and a spread eagle.
    2. Lady's steps 30b (the twizzles & the layback position)
    3. Both man & lady, steps 34-35, with the swing open Choctaw
    4. Both man & lady, steps 39-40, which includes a left front inside Open Choctaw.

    The requirements are very picky in the second section, generally about exactly prescribing the position in the layback & foot placement in the Choctaws. They also require you to hit the edges required, which I don't think is picky, but isn't necessarily easy.

    They are also picky in the first section (which teams did better on at Nebelhorn), particularly where the lady has to have both her thigh and leg parallel (not just almost parallel, as in previous year's decriptions) to the ice in the shoot the duck step (step 21), so getting level 4 there is not a gimme.

    I tried rewatching V&M's, F&S's, P&B's, and D&W's GW from Worlds last year, but the camera work was so bad, it was really hard to tell how their levels should be placed using this year's criteria.

    I think teams need to pick the GW part of their music very, very carefully, so that it helps them as much as possible.

    Getting level 4 in both segments gives you 14 points in base value. 6 points for the first section, 8 points for the second section.

    Level 1 in the second section is only 3.5, Level2 is the lowest seen so far on the first section, and that's 4.0. So you are conceivably looking at 6.5 points difference there for the GW segments, if a team is not careful & accurate with them

    That said, it's a compulsory dance. All the senior teams should be able to perform it correctly, so I am not in the least offended that highly ranked teams are getting dinged for doing it wrong. And it is consistent with COP that technical level is dependent on did you do the the thing correctly, and GOE is did you do it well? They are not the same things.

    Here's Natalie's & Fabian's SD from Nebelhorn. They did section2 prior to section 1. (Section 2 is the section that they were given only a Level 1 for)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_uqh0_J93Y

    While it is easy to spot the 1st section (about 1:35 to 2:12) the second section is not as clear. And I expect for sure they got dinged for the Lady's twizzle/layback step. Natalie kind of jumped her twizzles, and the layback wasn't all that stable. Perhaps Fabian's toe pick didn't pick in properly in the spread eagle step. It's hard for me to tell, because the view is partially obstructed. However, I'm not spotting anything all that wrong with either of the choctaw steps, so I can't tell you why they got level 1 rather than level2.

    As to GOE, that applies to all the steps, not just the 8 sections included for tech level.

    Zhiganshina & Gaszi (GER) got level 4's for both GW sequences in their Cirque du Soleil SD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKLeqwcD710

    This shows that you can do a dance technically correctly without doing it well enough to score huge GOE in the current COP SD format.

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    Have no problem with P&B not winning the SD as their performance was very sloppy (he appeared to slip at least 3 times) and looked relatively poorly trained compared to their FD. Think they were blindsided by the strictness of the new rules. But other than what the Germans were marked on the 8 elements, their overall program was awful IMO. In talking to many ice dancers and coaches recently regarding the new rules, almost all of them said they had in some ways to re-learn the GW because previously they were judged largely on the overall presentation more than exactness of the placement of foot or how parallel (45 degrees) the lady was to the ice in the shoot the duck move, etc. Also more power is in the hands of the Tech Controller in the SD because of the amount of points won or lost iin these 8 elements. I am not a proponent of the SD because I think very few teams will be able to mesh a strict CD with another rhythm and make it entertaining to the public, which also means TV is unlikely to cover it. The Italian team here did a pretty good job and duly won the SD but their two rhythms are not so different. The ISU also does not have a good number of CDs that are either interesting or difficult enough to use for more than a couple of years.

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    Have no problem with P&B not winning the SD as their performance was very sloppy (he appeared to slip at least 3 times) and looked relatively poorly trained compared to their FD. Think they were blindsided by the strictness of the new rules. But other than what the Germans were marked on the 8 elements, their overall program was awful IMO. In talking to many ice dancers and coaches recently regarding the new rules, almost all of them said they had in some ways to re-learn the GW because previously they were judged largely on the overall presentation more than exactness of the placement of foot or how parallel (45 degrees) the lady was to the ice in the shoot the duck move, etc. Also more power is in the hands of the Tech Controller in the SD because of the amount of points won or lost iin these 8 elements. I am not a proponent of the SD because I think very few teams will be able to mesh a strict CD with another rhythm and make it entertaining to the public, which also means TV is unlikely to cover it. The Italian team here did a pretty good job and duly won the SD but their two rhythms are not so different. The ISU also does not have a good number of CDs that are either interesting or difficult enough to use for more than a couple of years.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Then they will repeat.
    I'm expecting to see the Tango Romantica, the Yankee Polka, and hoping for the introduction of the Rhumba d'Amour. Perhaps they will use the Midnight Blues as well. If so, that's 5, including the GW, that they can use in rotation while they think of what to do in other years.

    I totally agree with you about teams having to relearn parts of the GW-however, if you are going to have a compulsory, it should be how it is performed that is compulsory, very like compulsory dives, for example, IMO. And teams can't say they were blind sided exactly--it was explicit in the rules.

    Sinicyn was able to read the rules, and hence his teams, Z&G and M&N, scored quite well in the GW segments. Other coaches and teams with more talent could certainly have done the same.

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    Thanks so much Doris for such a delightful post about what to look for in the Golden Waltz patterns now in the Short dance. I agree it's great that technique in the steps has received a big push in the judging. This should have been done from the beginning of COP.

    That being said.. I dont think the patters are working quite well within the overall presentationof the SD, they consume soo much time and Im always thinking: "Get over with it soon so I can see your choreo and what your program really looks like" but there's hardly any time to do anything.

    I also think this new format is failing at its main goal which was to make Ice Dance easier to follow for TV audiences. The fun and originality of, well, the Original Dance is sadly gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Then they will repeat.
    I'm expecting to see the Tango Romantica, the Yankee Polka, and hoping for the introduction of the Rhumba d'Amour. Perhaps they will use the Midnight Blues as well. If so, that's 5, including the GW, that they can use in rotation while they think of what to do in other years.
    You may be the only person to want to see the Yankee Polka again - one Kilian hold after another. The ISU already tanked T&D's rhumba. It's 1 1/2 pattern would take almost the entire SD so they would have to totally re-choreograph it. The Midnight Blues has too many toe steps and stops.

    I totally agree with you about teams having to relearn parts of the GW-however, if you are going to have a compulsory, it should be how it is performed that is compulsory, very like compulsory dives, for example, IMO. And teams can't say they were blind sided exactly--it was explicit in the rules.
    But other than the GW and Tango Romantica, most of the other Senior dances are pretty boring or not difficult enough. So they repeat GW and TR over and over? Talk about limiting creativity. I give the SD 2 years to go back to the OD.

    Sinicyn was able to read the rules, and hence his teams, Z&G and M&N, scored quite well in the GW segments. Other coaches and teams with more talent could certainly have done the same.
    Not saying dancers/coaches can't read rules, just saying that P&B just didn't realize how strict the controller would be re rules. After all the same thing happened at Lake Placid but our skaters were warned.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    While P&B may not have realized how strict the controller would be, nonetheless their coach should have realized it. Fortunately, they found out in a non GP event.

    There is no reason the R d'A (one repetition only, not 1 1/2 repetitions) wouldn't work in the SD format-just make the SD a little longer than this year, leaving the creative segment the same length as this year. That would give you a Latin OD.

    And while you find the YP boring, I think it would be fine if the teams could pick their own music, it's limited to one repetition, and its paired with a non polka rhythm, so the teams have the option of doing a non-folk section. It certainly would be no worse than the Viennese waltz they are using in Jrs this year. Polka/waltz worked quite well for the 2003 OD's (check Winkler/Lohse's OD). That way some of the SD's would be "grand ballroom" type, and some folk dances, which would be a decent variety.

    While not a fan of the tango, the TR will be fine.

    It would be nice to have a blues based SD, just for the variety of rhythms, year over year.

    I think the Midnight would be OK, given the freedom of choice of music for the SD format. Here's N&K's winning MN CD from Worlds 2004:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDyb-fM61Ns

    The music the committee chose for the MN is relatively awful, but there is a lot of great blues music out there.

    Finally, the Finnstep is very difficult, and Quickstep is not in general, a boring dance.

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    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    The choreography of that dance is no more Blues-like than that cheesy music..I think if they're going to use blues , they ought to ask Shae to re-choreograph it..
    well, or Chris Dean..

    Anyway , thanks for that breakdown post on the SD, Doris. I'm going to find it an invaluable reference through the season, I'm sure.. maybe I won't have to be sitting there scratching my head as much as I've been expecting to.

    I agree the Finnstep could be fun.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The Midnight is supposed to be based on this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmztHpSIT4E

    If it were fixed a bit, I think it could work. The original is still stunning.
    My grandson loves the blues...maybe I could get him to go with me to skating if it were used.
    He's the short one in this clip.

    I'll post a rundown on the Junior SD, with focus on the Viennese Waltz Cd that's part of it next.

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    Doris, how impressive! I love when a kid finds one of the great art forms. I was a classical music buff at his age (not that I could play an instrument, but I listened like it was food and drink—still do), and I've met or heard of a few jazz or blues buffs of middle-school vintage. Applause from me to him!

    I'll read your analysis in more detail over the weekend, not that I am at all competent to frame a reply. Thanks for the education! This year I'll watch skating with a lot more savvy, thanks to you and the other GS experts. Amazing—I thought I was getting all I could out of skating. I hadn't even scratched the surface.

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    Thank you Doris for your great analysis! I personally think that the SD is a huge improvement over what was. With compulsory dances, there was too much room for debate on what was or wasn't a good performance. A team could have sloppy or inaccurate feet or patterns, but still end up with high marks because it "looked nice" or was faster than the others. What's better? Accuracy or presentation? There are more than a few teams who have been able to breeze through compulsories this way in the past. And the real criteria might be different from competition to competition, depending on who is on the judging panel and their personal preferences. Now every coach and every skater can know for themselves exactly what is required, and this criteria will remain the same every time. It's a better balance of sport and art, and it is much more fair for the skaters. I also like that we get to see a team's personality through the choice of music. It is much more spectator friendly than sitting through hours of the same music. The new SD also provides a difference between SD and FD. With the OD, it was basically the same as a FD, only shorter. Now the SD is heavier on technical elements and skating skill. And I think this is a good thing. In order to qualify for the FD, you should have some solid skating skills. Show me your skill, then add the art. When you can do both, you win, and so does the sport and the audience. Having seen the juniors this year so far, and the odd senior in practice and small competitions, I'm definitely a fan of SD. If results are a bit shocking to some teams who are used to finding themselves on top, lesson learned for them and their coaches.

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    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Go Cam ! As a life-long blues fan , that's my favourite clip of the day.

    If I ever knew, I forgot that MB was based on T&D, and that first example sure wouldn't lead me to guess it...It would need some fixing..But if it were to be fixed, after seeing their "Billie Jean" , I'd bet Meryl & Charlie could do it up proper.

    They'd have to be careful who they got to fix it.. was it a U/Z or G/P blues program where he was choking her in the middle of the program ? Wouldn't want any of that creeping in.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    We're ridiculously proud of our Cam. He has just turned twelve.

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    Will have to amend my previous post as I somehow accidently deleted a couple of words before I hit the submit button. I meant to say, The Midnight Blues is edgy yet blah, and the Finnstep has too many toe steps and stops. I was in Vancouver at 2001 Worlds when the IDTC had some of us bused to the practice rink for the first performance of the Midnight Blues where the Bradshaw's son Mark performed it with his partner. It hasn't been used much since. The SD is still experimental and will be reassessed at the 2012 ISU Council Meeting.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Given that the technical calling for the SD Pattern Dance picks out only 8 points (shared out between the ladies' steps, the mens' steps or steps of both) to use to assign the levels, all the toe steps could simply be ignored in the Finnstep, so I feel it could still be used.



    Some more Short Dance

    Seniors

    from French masters


    Blanc/ Bouquet
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0-12hKk2G4

    Carron/Jones
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkB6rKzbBBA

    P/B
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlgYH8Q0UFA

    Juniors

    From French Masters

    Zahorski / Miart
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-7V3Lyzea0

    from JGP Courchevel

    Stepanova / Bukin RUS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4PHfsle3BM

    Kosygina / Moroshkin RUS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX7ptObyW5E

    Bott / Brown FRA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUtSkHE3tSc

    Papadakis / Ciceron FRA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pu0OL_g8ic

    Cannuscio / McManus USA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsBG9a1BJ4

    Aldridge / Eaton USA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fniteh_l8O4

    Leininger / Caurel FRA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8kXKBBkNkQ

    Maccuish / Morris CAN
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMm_4dH5wXY

    From JGP Graz
    Gassoumi / Pasztory FRA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFwXcmxcbuY

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