pairs sp

[mousepotato]

I normally agree with you, but this one is just bad.
What great entrance? They were stalking the throw for a while, with little speed and no transition going in.
What great flow? By the nature of two-footing, there's no flow.
While she was on the air, her position, height were nice. That was it.

Don't forget the judges SHOULD BE experts. If they can't spot mistakes and you can and I can in real time, maybe it's time they go back to the woods and tend cattle, eh? Judging FS isn't for them. Watching programs live, I find it's easier to spot mistakes. You're arguing as if judges should be mom and pop watching FS for the first time. Wrong assumption. Wrong conclusion. I see them getting -2 GOE across the board, evidence by the number of judges who actually gave them -2 GOE.

They weren’t stalking it any longer than anyone else does and certainly not longer than they did for the flip and don’t forget it’s not just some throw sal it’s an axel, so the set up is completely different.

The jump begins while she is in front of him. After she landed she skated another 8-10 feet (watch the slo mo) so obviously she had flow coming out of the throw. Although by definition her “two footed landing” was considered such because both blades touched the ice, he left blade barely touched the ice and came off a second later and didn’t slow her down at all.

In contrast, here is a 3FTh where all things being equal, she steps out. A much worse error but she still only received 6 -2 and 3-1. As opposed to the 4 -2 and 1 -1 she got for the axel, not which throw has a more egregious error? If you thought she deserved a -2 for a blade lightly touching the ice that barely affected the throw, what would you have given the huge step-out? A -2 as well or a -3? What would you give a fall on the ice a -5? Judges have to weight all things and the error wasn't even close to a -2, just because the majority of judges did the same thing doesn't mean they are right, on any element.

[Mao88]

Videos - Pairs Short Program (Amended)

1. Aliona SAVCHENKO/Robin SZOLKOWY (GER)

2. Qing PANG/Jian TONG (CHN)

3. Narumi TAKAHASHI/Mervin TRAN (JPN)

4. Vera BAZAROVA/Yuri LARIONOV (RUS)

5. Meagan DUHAMEL/Eric RADFORD (CAN)

6. Wenjing SUI/Cong HAN (CHN)

7. Caydee DENNEY/John COUGHLIN USA

8. Tatiana VOLOSOZHAR/Maxim TRANKOV (RUS)

9. Stefania BERTON/Ondrej HOTAREK (ITA)

10. Mary Beth MARLEY/Rockne BRUBAKER (USA)

[FlattFan]

They weren’t stalking it any longer than anyone else does and certainly not longer than they did for the flip and don’t forget it’s not just some throw sal it’s an axel, so the set up is completely different.

Yes, that's called stalking. They were VERY slow and deliberate for that move. So what if it's an axel, you can't stalk an axel throw?

The jump begins while she is in front of him. After she landed she skated another 8-10 feet (watch the slo mo) so obviously she had flow coming out of the throw. Although by definition her “two footed landing” was considered such because both blades touched the ice, he left blade barely touched the ice and came off a second later and didn’t slow her down at all.

You need to look at Zhang and Zhang throws or Sui and Han throws to learn what "flow" should be like. By nature of pairs, all throw should at least have some flow. Unlike single skaters, she can't drill herself into one spot. She'd break her legs that way. Hence, they had no "flow" for that element.

In contrast, here is a 3FTh where all things being equal, she steps out. A much worse error but she still only received 6 -2 and 3-1. As opposed to the 4 -2 and 1 -1 she got for the axel, not which throw has a more egregious error? If you thought she deserved a -2 for a blade lightly touching the ice that barely affected the throw, what would you have given the huge step-out? A -2 as well or a -3? What would you give a fall on the ice a -5? Judges have to weight all things and the error wasn't even close to a -2, just because the majority of judges did the same thing doesn't mean they are right, on any element.

You can't give -5. The max is -3, btw. So yes, I would give a -2 automatically. For a huge step-out, -3 GOE + whatever +GOE for that throw, so yes, they could end up with a -2 GOE.
This 3A throw, they had no transition, no flow, just bad landing, so there is no +GOE, so they should get -2 GOE.

Tell me why should judges gave them +1 GOE or 0 GOE? You said you could see them doing so because they are human and can't catch mistakes?

[mousepotato]

You need to look at Zhang and Zhang throws or Sui and Han throws to learn what "flow" should be like. By nature of pairs, all throw should at least have some flow. Unlike single skaters, she can't drill herself into one spot. She'd break her legs that way. Hence, they had no "flow" for that element.

Funny you bring up S/H, they are the worst offenders. Here is their qual sal at 4CC. Even more of your so called ‘stalked’ taking up the entire rink to gain speed then half if it again for the jump, same landing, NO FLOW, Aliona at least glided on her back edge - per the rules , Sui had to go right into the next move indicating she was probably about to lose control and moved on to the next thing before it happend. (Stolbova is the best case of keeping an edge to prove to the judges she had the landing.)

Yet S/H were given

0 -1 -1 -1 +1 +2 -1 -2 -1

I wonder what they will be given at this competion with the same judges if she does it the same way.

You can't give -5.

That’s precisely my point

This 3A throw, they had no transition, no flow, just bad landing, so there is no +GOE, so they should get -2 GOE.

That’s your opinion it was a bad landing that warrants a -2, I disagree. I’m not sure you know what flow means, or where transitions should be taken off on a score sheet.

Tell me why should judges gave them +1 GOE or 0 GOE? You said you could see them doing so because they are human and can't catch mistakes?

I never said the judges who gave them + GOE made mistake I said the ones who gave them -2 did, in my opinion. If a judge under normal circumstances would have given that jump a 2 or 3 but the two blades on the ice caused them to drip the GOE by two points the score would still be a 0 or 1, not every error has to be in the negative, I'm not sure fans understand that. Just because a skater makes a slight error on an element doesn’t mean the judges have to club them to death with the GOE. It just doesn't work that way.

[FlattFan]

I never said the judges who gave them + GOE made mistake I said the ones who gave them -2 did, in my opinion. If a judge under normal circumstances would have given that jump a 2 or 3 but the two blades on the ice caused them to drip the GOE by two points the score would still be a 0 or 1, not every error has to be in the negative, I'm not sure fans understand that. Just because a skater makes a slight error on an element doesn’t mean the judges have to club them to death with the GOE. It just doesn't work that way.

So +GOE in this case is accurate judging? You're really hopeless if you think judges can't see mistakes because they are human, too.
S/H should get -2/-1 GOE for that element, too.

[mousepotato]

So +GOE in this case is accurate judging? You're really hopeless if you think judges can't see mistakes because they are human, too.
S/H should get -2/-1 GOE for that element, too.

Yes, that's how judging works; I'm sorry you disagree with it, I didn't make the rules. I didn't say anything about "judges not seeing mistakes" that is how you choose to interpret my words or the infernece was lost. All the rules of GOE are clearly written out on the ISU website for all to read and understand if they choose to. But just because you don't agree with a judge’s assessment does not mean the judge was wrong.

[CPWest]

Glad to see Pang and Tong are back to competition and are doing great! Looking forward to the LP tomorrow.

[euroskate]

I don't know whose blog this is, but this is the best pairs summary I've seen. Especially the part about Volosozhar and Trankov...

thanks for sharing. love this summary