Ladies - Short Program | Page 33 | Golden Skate

Ladies - Short Program

Ilvskating

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
I think Kexin Zhang 's PCS is too low. never saw her live but from the Vedic she appeared to be fast and crispy clean and performed very well. she has the third highest tes but pcs is way down. hopefully she skates well enough to maintain in the top ten, and get higher pcs.
love Mao's skating, happy for the young Japaness girl, she's a bundle of joy. Elena's combo was huge and love her energy.

wish everybody good luck and skate clean or cleanish at least. I so hope Mao win, but would be happy if someone else skate light out and win the gold.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
with all the doom and gloom I expected a train wreck for Ashley. It wasn't her best, but it wasn't as awful as people make it out to be.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
^^^^ Ashley is not a bomber. She may not be perfect but she will fight for the program. Sadly Alissa lacks such mental toughness.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Man, if Leonova medals, she'll make it royally hard for the Russian fed to dump her next season. I feel like I'm gonna go to figure skating hell for saying this, but she's rather like Wier in that category.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
You make good points too rain. I have been up-and-down about Carolina. I thought at one point that she would just take off because she has the looks, the speed, the great potential. After she was briefly coached by Frank C, she seemed to develop more polish and better costumes. Her problem has been consistency on the jumps, and the fact that she does not do all of the jumps. I really find that to be a glaring fault in today's ladies' field, partly due to IJS judging system which is based on points and so allows skaters and their coaches to strategize their programs in a way that forgives not doing all the basic jumps. Another fault that I have with Carolina is that altho' I sympathize with the great pressure on her as the main champion of her country and how she was over-hyped for the 2006 Olympics and fared poorly, she has been on the scene for a long time, able to go to Worlds year after year and work out the kinks, often gifted with medals when her performances were undeserving. Who else gets chances like that? At this point, Carolina should be head and shoulders above everyone, no mistakes, and no faltering on her jumps. Yes, she does have perhaps the best programs in the field -- I just wish she would go out there with freedom and shock and awe -- and I wish she would perform all the basic jumps. If she never does (like Yu Na too was unable to do), I have to say that I don't hold this generation of ladies skaters in very high stead.

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For the poster complaining about this being a U.S. thread -- not true. Understandably a lot of posters were discussing Phil Hersh's article and there has been a lot of discussion about Alissa, but surely you can see that there is a reason for that. Alissa flopped, but without question she is a top skater. This thread has been mainly discussing the top skaters.

Therefore, let me say this about Yrethe Silete of France. I thought Silete skated extremely well with a fine 3/3 -- I haven't seen if it was downgraded -- perhaps the landing on the second triple got -GOE, but I think Silete should be ahead of Glebova (who fell); Lacoste who did double turns in between her two combo jumps; McCorkell who is not a strong skater -- she lumbers across the ice and only did a 3/2 for her combo, plus she waayyy over-telegraphed her 3-lutz; and Valentina Marchei, who is also not a strong skater plus she had a very glaring error on a landing, much worse than the turn-out Silete had on one of her jumps. Other than that one minor mistake, Silete is an engaging skater with nice lines, good presentation and very good technique on her jumps and in-betweens (unlike former eligible French skater, Surya Bonaly). Silete is also skating in her home country, so What Up with her not scoring higher, particularly over the other ladies I mentioned??

Everyone works so hard from every country, as we all know, but not everyone is a strong skater with good skills. Too bad that this is where politics and make-up of judging and technical panels comes into play.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
The judges should go back to the training camp and the strict Shin Amano be soaked in alcohol and pounded out with a meat tenderizer.:p Just kidding.
I guess the reason Kanako did not receive as high GOEs in her jumps as Alena did is probably due to her unorthodox techniques--swaggering with a big kick into a jump. Still, I think Alena was overmarked in PCSs.
 

Bentley

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
There are two comptitors from the US. Why is the burden on Ashley alone? Alissa is nice and a beutiful skater but she is never seems to be able to pull it off when it counts the most. It will be as much her fault if the US loses spots as it is Ashley's.
 
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Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I am a total hack amateur to this but I did prefer Murakami's performance over Leonova but I could see why she won and felt she and Murakami were undermarked. I also think how could someone with not one clean jump end up qualifying. PCS can only stay up so much when half your performance was struggling or picking yourself up on jumps. Czisny was overmarked in my opinion. I also found Mao a bit flat; Again my suggestion is Carolina take the gold and run. You have been a luck girl to win so many medals with often less than fabulous routines. Don't push it. I don't see Leonova holding on. The issue is can Russia hold on to three women. I can't see Ameilie Lacoste getting Canada two spots. She would need meltdown from skaters who seemed vulnerable - Czisny, Elene, Viktoria Hegelsen, Kexin, Makarova, Marchesi at least.
 

Selene

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
There are two comptitors from the US. Why is the burden on Ashley alone? Alissa is nice and a beutiful skater but she is never seems to be able to pull it off when it counts the most. It will be as much her fault if the US loses spots as it is Ashley's.

Because Alissa is a lost cause at this point. There is virtually no chance that she skates a good long program this weekend. At this point, I'll be happy if she lands three clean triples (which I'm not expecting, given her landing zero clean triples in the long program at the Challenge Cup and bombing in the short program of this competition.)

The writing was on the wall with Alissa. This is USFSA's fault for sending her to the Worlds in the condition she is in. I do not understand the love affair they have with Alissa. Her technical ability is very poor. Even at her best, her jumps are questionable.
 

tampro1

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 30, 2005
Thanks for those. I stand by my opinion: Alena's jumps were great, her spins were decent, her energy was wonderful...but that is a terrible program. Literally element after element with virtually nothing in between.

Alena is never going to be elegant or a ballet princess. Yes, that program probably has too much posing, butt shaking and winking. But I think she is being packaged to her strengths. She doesn't have the skating skills of Mao, Carolina or most of the other contenders. But....she's charming, aggressive and has that "ta dah!" factor to her skating. She skates with pizazz. She's making the best of what she's got. I applaud her personality she showcases on the ice! I probably would have had Murakami in 1st. I appreciate how hard she fights when she's often overlooked by all the upcoming Russian phenoms. I agree that if she makes the podium here, it will really make it difficult for her federation to just cast her aside for the up and comers. I'm sure she knows that.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Alena's program is typical Morozov choreo which has high success rate of getting high scores with minimal effort, with rest stops masquerading as "artistic expressions".

Has Alissa done good LP after bombing the SP before?
 

tampro1

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 30, 2005
In the LP, I think Team Czisny needs to own up to the fact that they did her a disservice in making the decision of upping the technical ante in her programs and giving her more difficulty than she can handle with the 3Lutz+3toe training in the SP and the LP and attempting two 3Lutzes and two 3loops in the LP. Upping the ante only resulted in her getting injured and now the result is that her confidence has been completely shattered as well as her reputation with the judges.

I think Team Czisny got feedback from the USFSA and international judges and they made it clear that if she didn't up the ante, she was not going to be a contender. She can't rely on just pretty, slow and safe skating to be a contender internationally. She doesn't have the speed or programs of Kostner. So watered down jumping wouldn't fly. It seemed to work early on as she did beat Kostner. Somewhere along the way she lost her confidence (and got injured) and it has snowballed. It's doubtful that her coaches didn't weigh all the options. Remember, their reputations are on the line as well. I think they did the best they could to make her competitive. Alissa has just fallen back to old habits and doubts.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Alissa and Carolina are similar in some ways, yes, BUT THERE ARE 2 HUGE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEM:

1.) Carolina is a very strong jumper with excellent technique, while Alissa is a poor jumper with skary technique.

2.) Carolina, even when she bombed, was not wasting another deserving skater's chance to compete at the WCs, she's the best skater in Italy, hands down. When she was really tanking, Valentina beat her a few times, but Italy pretty much always has 2 spots for ladies at Euros and Worlds anyways, so it's not like she was even preventing Valentina from competing most of the time (and even a Kostner meltdown would place about the same as an average Marchei, so it's a moot point).

These two points make all the difference, and you think the USFS would have learned this by now, but no, they keep holding Alissa up at nationals even though they know she's a weak jumper and a complete headcase under pressure. It's one thing to send a headcase to Worlds when she has a legitimate chance at winning the title if she delivers and you don't have a handful of really talented skaters sitting at home, it's entirely another when the skater has no shot at winning the title even if perfect and there are 3 or 4 girls who have the same kind of scoring potential and are stronger jumpers and more consistent competitors sitting at home who deserve the shot to go.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Alissa and Carolina are similar in some ways, yes, BUT THERE ARE 2 HUGE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEM:

1.) Carolina is a very strong jumper with excellent technique, while Alissa is a poor jumper with skary technique.

2.) Carolina, even when she bombed, was not wasting another deserving skater's chance to compete at the WCs, she's the best skater in Italy, hands down. When she was really tanking, Valentina beat her a few times, but Italy pretty much always has 2 spots for ladies at Euros and Worlds anyways, so it's not like she was even preventing Valentina from competing most of the time (and even a Kostner meltdown would place about the same as an average Marchei, so it's a moot point).

These two points make all the difference, and you think the USFS would have learned this by now, but no, they keep holding Alissa up at nationals even though they know she's a weak jumper and a complete headcase under pressure. It's one thing to send a headcase to Worlds when she has a legitimate chance at winning the title if she delivers and you don't have a handful of really talented skaters sitting at home, it's entirely another when the skater has no shot at winning the title even if perfect and there are 3 or 4 girls who have the same kind of scoring potential and are stronger jumpers and more consistent competitors sitting at home who deserve the shot to go.

Carolina Kostner's worst showing was the LP in 2009 World, and her worst is about 30 points better than Alissa's worst.
They are nothing similar. Caro is a headcase, but has incredible potential. How many girls still put out triple triple for almost a decade? Not Mao, not Yuna, not Miki, not Michelle.
The only lady who's similar to Caro is Shizuka. They are both inconsistent, but when they are at their best, they are the best in the world.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
I wouldn't call Kostner a strong jumper. Yes she skates with great speed but her jumps are not that great in fact i don't know how she lands them sometimes.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Wagner said she wanted to help get back those 3 spots, but it's pretty clear she couldn't do it alone. I was a bit worried for Czisny- couldn't put my finger on why exactly- so I wasn't expecting a clean SP from her but what I DID expect was some fight, like she showed last year (and even early on this season). None at all. She was defeated the instant she went down the first time. Like Nagasu.

I'm not even ready to say she should have stayed home, at least not from the info I know right now. Unlike many others in this thread I didn't really have a problem with Czisny in 2nd at Nationals. She was shaky, but not terrible. But no one else brought it that night! Except for Wagner, and Flatt (who was too far back to be in contention anyway). Zawadzki certainly didn't deserve to beat her- in fact, she probably should have been 4th, behind Zhang. Zhang fought back from last year, but not sure she was quite up there yet. I could make a case for 3rd, but definitely not 2nd.

I mean, after the disaster that was GPF, and Czisny blaming it on injury, her Nationals performance was at least an improvement, although still iffy. She seemed on the way back up- maybe not to last year's level, but even a mediocre Czisny would have a good chance at lower top 10 in this field. Unfortunately, at Challenge Cup she became dismal Czisny. There was debate afterwards about whether USFS should boot her off the team or at the very least, make inquiries to her team about her readiness for worlds. But maybe it was too late to do anything at that point. And, like I pointed out earlier, the alternate would not be Zhang, but Zawadzki who AT HER BEST is just barely better than dismal Czisny. What is Zawadzki's SB this season for the short- isn't it something like 52? Not much better than 48.

I don't know. I give up, honestly. This is tiring and frustrating. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Every time we see a light, and walk towards it, it dims. And to those who say to send Zhang- there is a reason Skate Canada had Lacoste and Phaneuf skate-off after Lacoste won Canadians. One was the more established competitor, right? Zhang has never been to worlds and she is on the upswing after a really tough season. Choosing to send her right after Nationals would seem rather foolish when Czisny is the more established competitor. I guess what USFS COULD have done, since 4CC was in the US, was to send Wagner (as the champion) to worlds and have Czisny, Zawadzki and Zhang go to 4CC to compete for the 2nd spot, which would go to the highest finisher. But then the X-Factor kicks in- PRESSURE is added and that affects how all 3 of them skate. But even that wouldn't necessarily have safeguarded against what happened today.

Besides, didn't USFS try this with the men on previous occasions? Send the budding up-and-comers to worlds over veterans who skated poorly? And tell me how that turned out?
 

b-man

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
There are two comptitors from the US. Why is the burden on Ashley alone? Alissa is nice and a beutiful skater but she is never seems to be able to pull it off when it counts the most. It will be as much her fault if the US loses spots as it is Ashley's.

It depends on how they finish after the FS. If Ashley ends up 4th or 5th, and Alissa out of the top 10, Ashley will have done her part and both Alissa and USFSA will be crucified on these boards. If Ashley ends up 8th and Alissa below Ashley, they will both be criticized.
 

irinas

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
I wouldn't call Kostner a strong jumper. Yes she skates with great speed but her jumps are not that great in fact i don't know how she lands them sometimes.

Kostner is a strong jumper, infact, she is perhaps one of the best jumpers of this decade. Just watch these two clips from her practice sessions and you will understand what I mean. She doesn't miss a thing, always has a perfect landing position and flow out of the jump. Her problem is to jump like that in the competition too..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-L7nhaBvIs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjhJcgNCyG0
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Wagner said she wanted to help get back those 3 spots, but it's pretty clear she couldn't do it alone. I was a bit worried for Czisny- couldn't put my finger on why exactly- so I wasn't expecting a clean SP from her but what I DID expect was some fight, like she showed last year (and even early on this season). None at all. She was defeated the instant she went down the first time. Like Nagasu.

I'm not even ready to say she should have stayed home, at least not from the info I know right now. Unlike many others in this thread I didn't really have a problem with Czisny in 2nd at Nationals. She was shaky, but not terrible. But no one else brought it that night! Except for Wagner, and Flatt (who was too far back to be in contention anyway). Zawadzki certainly didn't deserve to beat her- in fact, she probably should have been 4th, behind Zhang. Zhang fought back from last year, but not sure she was quite up there yet. I could make a case for 3rd, but definitely not 2nd.

I mean, after the disaster that was GPF, and Czisny blaming it on injury, her Nationals performance was at least an improvement, although still iffy. She seemed on the way back up- maybe not to last year's level, but even a mediocre Czisny would have a good chance at lower top 10 in this field. Unfortunately, at Challenge Cup she became dismal Czisny. There was debate afterwards about whether USFS should boot her off the team or at the very least, make inquiries to her team about her readiness for worlds. But maybe it was too late to do anything at that point. And, like I pointed out earlier, the alternate would not be Zhang, but Zawadzki who AT HER BEST is just barely better than dismal Czisny. What is Zawadzki's SB this season for the short- isn't it something like 52? Not much better than 48.

I don't know. I give up, honestly. This is tiring and frustrating. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Every time we see a light, and walk towards it, it dims. And to those who say to send Zhang- there is a reason Skate Canada had Lacoste and Phaneuf skate-off after Lacoste won Canadians. One was the more established competitor, right? Zhang has never been to worlds and she is on the upswing after a really tough season. Choosing to send her right after Nationals would seem rather foolish when Czisny is the more established competitor. I guess what USFS COULD have done, since 4CC was in the US, was to send Wagner (as the champion) to worlds and have Czisny, Zawadzki and Zhang go to 4CC to compete for the 2nd spot, which would go to the highest finisher. But then the X-Factor kicks in- PRESSURE is added and that affects how all 3 of them skate. But even that wouldn't necessarily have safeguarded against what happened today.

Besides, didn't USFS try this with the men on previous occasions? Send the budding up-and-comers to worlds over veterans who skated poorly? And tell me how that turned out?

Wasn't Alissa held up though? If there was no tradition of holding up skaters, there might be a different environment for skaters to compete. Who knows what's happening in Alissa's head now, but if I were a skater and had the sense that my opportunity to skate at Worlds had been contrived for me due to favoritism, I might feel more pressure to do well, and feel all the more awful for having failed to live up to the gift.

American figure skating culture has a strong 'beauty pageant' element to it (exemplified by Phil Hersch), and that's what's diminished women's figure skating in US.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Wasn't Alissa held up though? If there was no tradition of holding up skaters, there might be a different environment for skaters to compete. Who knows what's happening in Alissa's head now, but if I were a skater and had the sense that my opportunity to skate at Worlds had been contrived for me due to favoritism, I might feel more pressure to do well, and feel all the more awful for having failed to live up to the gift.

Held up where? Nationals? In 2009, I would agree- she was held up with a shaky FS above both Flatt and Zhang who did 7-triple(!) freeskates. But this year? Zawadzki bombed...Zhang was not really in title contention after the SP...Nagasu did herself in as well. But who should have gone to worlds instead of Czisny? You folks claim Czisny was held up/didn't deserve to go; well then, who did?

This is not meant to be a defense of Czisny, or of how she performed here. She completely dropped the ball today and it's 100% her fault, no matter how much Phil Hersh tries to shift blame to USFS. If she doesn't feel she's in condition to compete (at least competently), it's up to her to do the right thing and WD from the competition. However, where I do think USFS comes in is they have to make sure she is ready- as they learned(?) from Flatt last year, you can't always trust that the competitors have the team's best interest at heart. That said, based on what she did that season and at Nationals, I think she earned the spot. Remember, it was only after Challenge Cup a couple weeks ago that red flags went up re. Czisny, and the steps to take after that I suppose were debatable.
 
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