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Thread: Ladies - Short Program

  1. #646
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    The judges should go back to the training camp and the strict Shin Amano be soaked in alcohol and pounded out with a meat tenderizer. Just kidding.
    I guess the reason Kanako did not receive as high GOEs in her jumps as Alena did is probably due to her unorthodox techniques--swaggering with a big kick into a jump. Still, I think Alena was overmarked in PCSs.

  2. #647
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    There are two comptitors from the US. Why is the burden on Ashley alone? Alissa is nice and a beutiful skater but she is never seems to be able to pull it off when it counts the most. It will be as much her fault if the US loses spots as it is Ashley's.
    Last edited by Bentley; 03-29-2012 at 10:53 PM.

  3. #648
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    I am a total hack amateur to this but I did prefer Murakami's performance over Leonova but I could see why she won and felt she and Murakami were undermarked. I also think how could someone with not one clean jump end up qualifying. PCS can only stay up so much when half your performance was struggling or picking yourself up on jumps. Czisny was overmarked in my opinion. I also found Mao a bit flat; Again my suggestion is Carolina take the gold and run. You have been a luck girl to win so many medals with often less than fabulous routines. Don't push it. I don't see Leonova holding on. The issue is can Russia hold on to three women. I can't see Ameilie Lacoste getting Canada two spots. She would need meltdown from skaters who seemed vulnerable - Czisny, Elene, Viktoria Hegelsen, Kexin, Makarova, Marchesi at least.

  4. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bentley View Post
    There are two comptitors from the US. Why is the burden on Ashley alone? Alissa is nice and a beutiful skater but she is never seems to be able to pull it off when it counts the most. It will be as much her fault if the US loses spots as it is Ashley's.
    Because Alissa is a lost cause at this point. There is virtually no chance that she skates a good long program this weekend. At this point, I'll be happy if she lands three clean triples (which I'm not expecting, given her landing zero clean triples in the long program at the Challenge Cup and bombing in the short program of this competition.)

    The writing was on the wall with Alissa. This is USFSA's fault for sending her to the Worlds in the condition she is in. I do not understand the love affair they have with Alissa. Her technical ability is very poor. Even at her best, her jumps are questionable.

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Thanks for those. I stand by my opinion: Alena's jumps were great, her spins were decent, her energy was wonderful...but that is a terrible program. Literally element after element with virtually nothing in between.
    Alena is never going to be elegant or a ballet princess. Yes, that program probably has too much posing, butt shaking and winking. But I think she is being packaged to her strengths. She doesn't have the skating skills of Mao, Carolina or most of the other contenders. But....she's charming, aggressive and has that "ta dah!" factor to her skating. She skates with pizazz. She's making the best of what she's got. I applaud her personality she showcases on the ice! I probably would have had Murakami in 1st. I appreciate how hard she fights when she's often overlooked by all the upcoming Russian phenoms. I agree that if she makes the podium here, it will really make it difficult for her federation to just cast her aside for the up and comers. I'm sure she knows that.

  6. #651
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    Alena's program is typical Morozov choreo which has high success rate of getting high scores with minimal effort, with rest stops masquerading as "artistic expressions".

    Has Alissa done good LP after bombing the SP before?

  7. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    In the LP, I think Team Czisny needs to own up to the fact that they did her a disservice in making the decision of upping the technical ante in her programs and giving her more difficulty than she can handle with the 3Lutz+3toe training in the SP and the LP and attempting two 3Lutzes and two 3loops in the LP. Upping the ante only resulted in her getting injured and now the result is that her confidence has been completely shattered as well as her reputation with the judges.
    I think Team Czisny got feedback from the USFSA and international judges and they made it clear that if she didn't up the ante, she was not going to be a contender. She can't rely on just pretty, slow and safe skating to be a contender internationally. She doesn't have the speed or programs of Kostner. So watered down jumping wouldn't fly. It seemed to work early on as she did beat Kostner. Somewhere along the way she lost her confidence (and got injured) and it has snowballed. It's doubtful that her coaches didn't weigh all the options. Remember, their reputations are on the line as well. I think they did the best they could to make her competitive. Alissa has just fallen back to old habits and doubts.
    Last edited by tampro1; 03-29-2012 at 11:28 PM.

  8. #653
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    Alissa and Carolina are similar in some ways, yes, BUT THERE ARE 2 HUGE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEM:

    1.) Carolina is a very strong jumper with excellent technique, while Alissa is a poor jumper with skary technique.

    2.) Carolina, even when she bombed, was not wasting another deserving skater's chance to compete at the WCs, she's the best skater in Italy, hands down. When she was really tanking, Valentina beat her a few times, but Italy pretty much always has 2 spots for ladies at Euros and Worlds anyways, so it's not like she was even preventing Valentina from competing most of the time (and even a Kostner meltdown would place about the same as an average Marchei, so it's a moot point).

    These two points make all the difference, and you think the USFS would have learned this by now, but no, they keep holding Alissa up at nationals even though they know she's a weak jumper and a complete headcase under pressure. It's one thing to send a headcase to Worlds when she has a legitimate chance at winning the title if she delivers and you don't have a handful of really talented skaters sitting at home, it's entirely another when the skater has no shot at winning the title even if perfect and there are 3 or 4 girls who have the same kind of scoring potential and are stronger jumpers and more consistent competitors sitting at home who deserve the shot to go.

  9. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Alissa and Carolina are similar in some ways, yes, BUT THERE ARE 2 HUGE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEM:

    1.) Carolina is a very strong jumper with excellent technique, while Alissa is a poor jumper with skary technique.

    2.) Carolina, even when she bombed, was not wasting another deserving skater's chance to compete at the WCs, she's the best skater in Italy, hands down. When she was really tanking, Valentina beat her a few times, but Italy pretty much always has 2 spots for ladies at Euros and Worlds anyways, so it's not like she was even preventing Valentina from competing most of the time (and even a Kostner meltdown would place about the same as an average Marchei, so it's a moot point).

    These two points make all the difference, and you think the USFS would have learned this by now, but no, they keep holding Alissa up at nationals even though they know she's a weak jumper and a complete headcase under pressure. It's one thing to send a headcase to Worlds when she has a legitimate chance at winning the title if she delivers and you don't have a handful of really talented skaters sitting at home, it's entirely another when the skater has no shot at winning the title even if perfect and there are 3 or 4 girls who have the same kind of scoring potential and are stronger jumpers and more consistent competitors sitting at home who deserve the shot to go.
    Carolina Kostner's worst showing was the LP in 2009 World, and her worst is about 30 points better than Alissa's worst.
    They are nothing similar. Caro is a headcase, but has incredible potential. How many girls still put out triple triple for almost a decade? Not Mao, not Yuna, not Miki, not Michelle.
    The only lady who's similar to Caro is Shizuka. They are both inconsistent, but when they are at their best, they are the best in the world.

  10. #655
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    I wouldn't call Kostner a strong jumper. Yes she skates with great speed but her jumps are not that great in fact i don't know how she lands them sometimes.

  11. #656
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    Wagner said she wanted to help get back those 3 spots, but it's pretty clear she couldn't do it alone. I was a bit worried for Czisny- couldn't put my finger on why exactly- so I wasn't expecting a clean SP from her but what I DID expect was some fight, like she showed last year (and even early on this season). None at all. She was defeated the instant she went down the first time. Like Nagasu.

    I'm not even ready to say she should have stayed home, at least not from the info I know right now. Unlike many others in this thread I didn't really have a problem with Czisny in 2nd at Nationals. She was shaky, but not terrible. But no one else brought it that night! Except for Wagner, and Flatt (who was too far back to be in contention anyway). Zawadzki certainly didn't deserve to beat her- in fact, she probably should have been 4th, behind Zhang. Zhang fought back from last year, but not sure she was quite up there yet. I could make a case for 3rd, but definitely not 2nd.

    I mean, after the disaster that was GPF, and Czisny blaming it on injury, her Nationals performance was at least an improvement, although still iffy. She seemed on the way back up- maybe not to last year's level, but even a mediocre Czisny would have a good chance at lower top 10 in this field. Unfortunately, at Challenge Cup she became dismal Czisny. There was debate afterwards about whether USFS should boot her off the team or at the very least, make inquiries to her team about her readiness for worlds. But maybe it was too late to do anything at that point. And, like I pointed out earlier, the alternate would not be Zhang, but Zawadzki who AT HER BEST is just barely better than dismal Czisny. What is Zawadzki's SB this season for the short- isn't it something like 52? Not much better than 48.

    I don't know. I give up, honestly. This is tiring and frustrating. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Every time we see a light, and walk towards it, it dims. And to those who say to send Zhang- there is a reason Skate Canada had Lacoste and Phaneuf skate-off after Lacoste won Canadians. One was the more established competitor, right? Zhang has never been to worlds and she is on the upswing after a really tough season. Choosing to send her right after Nationals would seem rather foolish when Czisny is the more established competitor. I guess what USFS COULD have done, since 4CC was in the US, was to send Wagner (as the champion) to worlds and have Czisny, Zawadzki and Zhang go to 4CC to compete for the 2nd spot, which would go to the highest finisher. But then the X-Factor kicks in- PRESSURE is added and that affects how all 3 of them skate. But even that wouldn't necessarily have safeguarded against what happened today.

    Besides, didn't USFS try this with the men on previous occasions? Send the budding up-and-comers to worlds over veterans who skated poorly? And tell me how that turned out?

  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bentley View Post
    There are two comptitors from the US. Why is the burden on Ashley alone? Alissa is nice and a beutiful skater but she is never seems to be able to pull it off when it counts the most. It will be as much her fault if the US loses spots as it is Ashley's.
    It depends on how they finish after the FS. If Ashley ends up 4th or 5th, and Alissa out of the top 10, Ashley will have done her part and both Alissa and USFSA will be crucified on these boards. If Ashley ends up 8th and Alissa below Ashley, they will both be criticized.

  13. #658
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I wouldn't call Kostner a strong jumper. Yes she skates with great speed but her jumps are not that great in fact i don't know how she lands them sometimes.
    Kostner is a strong jumper, infact, she is perhaps one of the best jumpers of this decade. Just watch these two clips from her practice sessions and you will understand what I mean. She doesn't miss a thing, always has a perfect landing position and flow out of the jump. Her problem is to jump like that in the competition too..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-L7nhaBvIs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjhJcgNCyG0

  14. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Wagner said she wanted to help get back those 3 spots, but it's pretty clear she couldn't do it alone. I was a bit worried for Czisny- couldn't put my finger on why exactly- so I wasn't expecting a clean SP from her but what I DID expect was some fight, like she showed last year (and even early on this season). None at all. She was defeated the instant she went down the first time. Like Nagasu.

    I'm not even ready to say she should have stayed home, at least not from the info I know right now. Unlike many others in this thread I didn't really have a problem with Czisny in 2nd at Nationals. She was shaky, but not terrible. But no one else brought it that night! Except for Wagner, and Flatt (who was too far back to be in contention anyway). Zawadzki certainly didn't deserve to beat her- in fact, she probably should have been 4th, behind Zhang. Zhang fought back from last year, but not sure she was quite up there yet. I could make a case for 3rd, but definitely not 2nd.

    I mean, after the disaster that was GPF, and Czisny blaming it on injury, her Nationals performance was at least an improvement, although still iffy. She seemed on the way back up- maybe not to last year's level, but even a mediocre Czisny would have a good chance at lower top 10 in this field. Unfortunately, at Challenge Cup she became dismal Czisny. There was debate afterwards about whether USFS should boot her off the team or at the very least, make inquiries to her team about her readiness for worlds. But maybe it was too late to do anything at that point. And, like I pointed out earlier, the alternate would not be Zhang, but Zawadzki who AT HER BEST is just barely better than dismal Czisny. What is Zawadzki's SB this season for the short- isn't it something like 52? Not much better than 48.

    I don't know. I give up, honestly. This is tiring and frustrating. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Every time we see a light, and walk towards it, it dims. And to those who say to send Zhang- there is a reason Skate Canada had Lacoste and Phaneuf skate-off after Lacoste won Canadians. One was the more established competitor, right? Zhang has never been to worlds and she is on the upswing after a really tough season. Choosing to send her right after Nationals would seem rather foolish when Czisny is the more established competitor. I guess what USFS COULD have done, since 4CC was in the US, was to send Wagner (as the champion) to worlds and have Czisny, Zawadzki and Zhang go to 4CC to compete for the 2nd spot, which would go to the highest finisher. But then the X-Factor kicks in- PRESSURE is added and that affects how all 3 of them skate. But even that wouldn't necessarily have safeguarded against what happened today.

    Besides, didn't USFS try this with the men on previous occasions? Send the budding up-and-comers to worlds over veterans who skated poorly? And tell me how that turned out?
    Wasn't Alissa held up though? If there was no tradition of holding up skaters, there might be a different environment for skaters to compete. Who knows what's happening in Alissa's head now, but if I were a skater and had the sense that my opportunity to skate at Worlds had been contrived for me due to favoritism, I might feel more pressure to do well, and feel all the more awful for having failed to live up to the gift.

    American figure skating culture has a strong 'beauty pageant' element to it (exemplified by Phil Hersch), and that's what's diminished women's figure skating in US.

  15. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Wasn't Alissa held up though? If there was no tradition of holding up skaters, there might be a different environment for skaters to compete. Who knows what's happening in Alissa's head now, but if I were a skater and had the sense that my opportunity to skate at Worlds had been contrived for me due to favoritism, I might feel more pressure to do well, and feel all the more awful for having failed to live up to the gift.
    Held up where? Nationals? In 2009, I would agree- she was held up with a shaky FS above both Flatt and Zhang who did 7-triple(!) freeskates. But this year? Zawadzki bombed...Zhang was not really in title contention after the SP...Nagasu did herself in as well. But who should have gone to worlds instead of Czisny? You folks claim Czisny was held up/didn't deserve to go; well then, who did?

    This is not meant to be a defense of Czisny, or of how she performed here. She completely dropped the ball today and it's 100% her fault, no matter how much Phil Hersh tries to shift blame to USFS. If she doesn't feel she's in condition to compete (at least competently), it's up to her to do the right thing and WD from the competition. However, where I do think USFS comes in is they have to make sure she is ready- as they learned(?) from Flatt last year, you can't always trust that the competitors have the team's best interest at heart. That said, based on what she did that season and at Nationals, I think she earned the spot. Remember, it was only after Challenge Cup a couple weeks ago that red flags went up re. Czisny, and the steps to take after that I suppose were debatable.
    Last edited by R.D.; 03-30-2012 at 02:11 AM.

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