Ice Dance - Free Dance

ice coverage · Apr 2, 2012

isabella duncan said:
I was at the competition. To me, D/W looked like they were chasing after the gold. V/M, on the other hand, simply danced.

Can't help wondering:
Are you saying only that "chasing after gold" and "simply dancing" are apples and oranges?? [Comparable to the "tastes great" vs. "less filling" beer ads -- which actually are meant to highlight both as desirable qualities.]
Or do you believe that apples are preferable to oranges? Or maybe the other way around?

IMHO, at the level of V/M and D/W, both apples and oranges are appropriate goals.

isabella duncan · Apr 2, 2012

apples and oranges

Can't help wondering:Are you saying only that "chasing after gold" and "simply dancing" are apples and oranges??

I am just saying that V/M were totally into their program, while D/W seemed to be casting a glance at the podium finish. V/M were in their ZEN moment so to speak; D/W weren't. D/W looked frantic. Indeed, apples and oranges are both desirable fruits. I was just impressed by the joy V/M exuded because they were dancing. There is freedom in being lost in the moment and that freedom just translated well to me. Which is the apple, which is the orange? You tell me.

romanoff81 · Apr 2, 2012

Davis and white skated well but that music has been done to death there was nothing original about that waltz, Meryl`s arm movements are really weak compared to tessa and they weren`t hitting their edges on the step sequences all in all i thought there score was quite generous.

Mrs. P · Apr 3, 2012

isabella duncan said:
Can't help wondering:Are you saying only that "chasing after gold" and "simply dancing" are apples and oranges??

I am just saying that V/M were totally into their program, while D/W seemed to be casting a glance at the podium finish. V/M were in their ZEN moment so to speak; D/W weren't. D/W looked frantic. Indeed, apples and oranges are both desirable fruits. I was just impressed by the joy V/M exuded because they were dancing. There is freedom in being lost in the moment and that freedom just translated well to me. Which is the apple, which is the orange? You tell me.

I guess you see what you see. I didn't see them glancing at the podium at all. I thought D/W had just as much joy in their performance. The audience thought so too. So did the British Eurosport commentators.

isabella duncan · Apr 3, 2012

Let me explain what a metaphor is

Mrs. P said:
I guess you see what you see. I didn't see them glancing at the podium at all. I thought D/W had just as much joy in their performance. The audience thought so too. So did the British Eurosport commentators.

No, they were not glancing at the podium at all, Mrs. P. I was being metaphorical. This means I found D/W bent on beating V/M, while V/M simply danced as they should--lost in their own enchanting world. V/M seemed to me like they were performing the dance for art's sake, while D/W were after gaining points. Furthermore, if there were a waltz police, D/W would have been fined for speeding. You are supposed to glide in a waltz, not waltz as powerfully and as fast because you could.

Mathman · Apr 3, 2012

isabella duncan said:
This means I found D/W bent on beating V/M, while V/M simply danced as they should--lost in their own enchanting world.

I think the "lost in their own enchanted world" comes more from the viewer than from the performance. I am pretty sure that Scott Moir was trying like anything to beat the other guys. (See his press conference after Four Continents.

)

I think Mrs. P understood that you did not mean physically looking at the spot where the podium would be set up later. :laugh:

I think think she was saying that she did not have the same reaction to Davis and White's dance as you did.

jcoates · Apr 3, 2012

Waltzes can be both slow and lilting and fast and powerful. The critique of D/W on IN by Anna Trebunskaya (who is far more of an authority on dancing of all types than any of us could ever hope to be) was very positive and came to a very different conclusion than many of the V/M ubers here. She appreciated both teams, but found D/W's performances pre-Worlds to be more convincing. I don't know what she thought about worlds itself, but she seemed to be convinced by Mery; and Charlie's interpretation and movement up to that point.

Mrs. P · Apr 3, 2012

isabella duncan said:
No, they were not glancing at the podium at all, Mrs. P. I was being metaphorical. This means I found D/W bent on beating V/M, while V/M simply danced as they should--lost in their own enchanting world. V/M seemed to me like they were performing the dance for art's sake, while D/W were after gaining points. Furthermore, if there were a waltz police, D/W would have been fined for speeding. You are supposed to glide in a waltz, not waltz as powerfully and as fast because you could.

I write for a living, so I definitely know what a metaphor is.

That said, I guess I wasn't clear — Mathman is right, I didn't get a "We must beat V/M!" vibe while they were doing the program; they too, were simply doing the dance to the best of their ability. (Although, I had a huge laugh, MM, when I read your statement about looking at the podium literally).

Again, I will point back to the audience at Nice — if they felt they were watching D/W "gaining points" I doubt that they would have been on their feet after they were done.

Mrs. P · Apr 3, 2012

Anna's comments (as referenced by jcoates):

Trebunskaya, who has long been a skating fan, said she's always found Davis to be "exceptionally graceful."

"To me, she's like a fairy princess on ice," she said. "I feel that Charlie has a really good quality that complements her."

Their Viennese waltz program to music from Die Fledermaus has sections in which both skaters get to show their strengths.

"They have pieces where it was really about her and then there would be pieces that would go faster and it was kind of about Charlie driving it," Trebunskaya noted. "I found that very clever.

"Charlie sneaks little things in there, and he's able to showcase himself," she adds. "That's what makes this couple so exciting to watch. I watch both of them, which is so cool."

Her only critique is that at times Davis is more elegant than White.

"Everything else is beautiful," Trebunskaya said. "Charlie and Meryl set the bar right now for everybody."

Also on Virtue and Moir:

With Virtue and Moir's classical Olympic free dance in her memory, Trebunskaya was pleased to see them try something different in this year's free dance set to music from the Funny Face soundtrack.

"They definitely pushed it out of their comfort zone to be showier, more Broadway, with this piece, which I think is great because it pushed them to a different character than they would normally be," she said. "It's great for development of their performance skills.

"Technically, they looked absolutely great and sound," she continued. "It feels sometimes maybe she overpowers him. You tend to notice her more. I don't know if it's because of Scott's great ability to partner her and showcase her or it's something he maybe needs to do differently.

"Scott is definitely a great, great partner and Tessa just shines. In my opinion, they work really well together. I just wish he would find moments for himself to be more expressive."

Olympia · Apr 3, 2012

jcoates said:
Waltzes can be both slow and lilting and fast and powerful. The critique of D/W on IN by Anna Trebunskaya (who is far more of an authority on dancing of all types than any of us could ever hope to be) was very positive and came to a very different conclusion than many of the V/M ubers here. She appreciated both teams, but found D/W's performances pre-Worlds to be more convincing. I don't know what she thought about worlds itself, but she seemed to be convinced by Mery; and Charlie's interpretation and movement up to that point.

That's lovely to hear about, jcoates. It's great to get input from a ballroom specialist. And it's someone I'm familiar with, from DWTS, so I feel extra convinced because I've seen how she dances. I like what she has to say about both couples--and I happen to love both couples to begin with.

May I add, about the music from Die Fledermaus being "done to death," I don't feel that way. D/W give that music such freshness and life, it's as if Strauss wrote it just this year.

isabella duncan · Apr 3, 2012

D/w

Mrs. P said:
Again, I will point back to the audience at Nice — if they felt they were watching D/W "gaining points" I doubt that they would have been on their feet after they were done.

I do agree that D/W deserved not only the audience clapping to the beat of their waltz and the standing ovation afterwards but when trying to account for why V/M edged over them, it is my opinion that V/M did more than wanting to win, they danced for dance's sake, as in art for art's sake. This to me set V/M apart that night.

I do apologize for misconstruing your response as an inability to decipher metaphorical statements. Sorry.

Mrs. P · Apr 3, 2012

isabella duncan said:
I do agree that D/W deserved not only the audience clapping to the beat of their waltz and the standing ovation afterwards but when trying to account for why V/M edged over them, it is my opinion that V/M did more than wanting to win, they danced for dance's sake, as in art for art's sake. This to me set V/M apart that night.

I do apologize for misconstruing your response as an inability to decipher metaphorical statements. Sorry.

No worries.

I guess I'll agree to disagree with you. I think the reaction to both dances varied from person to person. And I'm not sure if I could even determine if one or the other had some sort of existentialist moment there...(or lack of one, I suppose).

Mrs. P · Apr 3, 2012

Olympia said:
That's lovely to hear about, jcoates. It's great to get input from a ballroom specialist. And it's someone I'm familiar with, from DWTS, so I feel extra convinced because I've seen how she dances. I like what she has to say about both couples--and I happen to love both couples to begin with.

May I add, about the music from Die Fledermaus being "done to death," I don't feel that way. D/W give that music such freshness and life, it's as if Strauss wrote it just this year.

Also considering that I love D/W AND Akiko Suzuki's version of it, it goes to show you can express the same piece differently and still get delight out of both.

Can't say I would say that with all the Requiem for a Dream programs.

Mathman · Apr 3, 2012

Thanks for posting Anna Trebunskaya's observations.

It is possible, though, to move the needle a little on partnering. Someone could say that Charlie is a little too flamboyant for Meryl, whereas Scott perfectly presents his partner. Practically the same thing as, Anna T's opinion that Charlie and Meryl both have their moments to shine and Charlie puts in a lot on interesting embellishments, while in the other couple Tessa stands out more than Scott.

Almost the same thing, but it comes out very different.

ImaginaryPogue · Apr 3, 2012

You know, it's interesting you say that, because I wouldn't think that at all. Meryl's the one often working the facial expressions and connection to the music aspect of the performance. The only expression I can recall from Charlie re: DF is his "we deserved higher but we'll nod classily" moment in the KnC.

heyhey · Apr 3, 2012

Previously on message boards, people have indicated that they would like to see Tessa and Charlie partner up. I actually think that Scott and Meryl would be an interesting combination. I think that Scott is underappreciated in terms of how he dances with Tessa. Although off the ice he has an outgoing personality and likes to ham it up - on the ice - he does an excellent job of partnering. And I also think that Meryl is underappreciated in terms of connection to the music. Out of the 4 dancers, I actually think that Charlie might have been better suited for singles.

ETA: I think that Charlie is a great skater!

jcoates · Apr 3, 2012

Charlie was the most successful of the four in singles, competing in several JGPs and Junior Nationals. I think that he could have been a success in pairs as well with the right sized partner.

As to Charlie's facial expressions, they have improved significantly ever since the success of the Bollywood program. He has greater range than he used to and establishes far more eye contact with both Meryl and the judges and audience than he is give credit for. He actually varies between bubbly and cheerful and confidently showy in sections of D/F. The old critique about his expression and eye contact has become a bit of a reliable fall back and somewhat cliched when distinguishing between the two teams. The same easy, predictability can be found in the critiques of V/M which almost always default to praising their connection, lines, musicality, etc. Even when they are off, the same canned lines of praise find their way into various posts. I feel it would be better to attempt to take a look at each team with fresh eyes each time they take the ice rather than relying on years of established perceptions. For example, I had no issue with V/M winning 4CC. they were clearly better in the end. I am not convinced of their clear superiority in Nice. Still it seems that there was a shift in perception that carried over between competitions and which established a new judging paradigm.

Taking another team into account, I felt the W/P could make a very strong case for performance of the night in the FD. I certainly thought they were noticeably better than P/B and were finally knocking on the door of the top two. There was a sureness to everything they did that has been slowly developing over the last two years. It was nice to see it come together as it reminded me somewhat of the breakthroughs V/M (2008) and D/W (2009) each had that forced the establishment to take notice of them.

romanoff81 · Apr 3, 2012

Weaver and Poje have an excellent chance of overtaking the top two in the olympic year if they win a medal at worlds next year a strong possibility with worlds in Canada, i felt they had much stronger programs than V&M this year they also have better coreographers they just need to up the difficulty in their steps and lifts and they will be there they need a new wow lift.

ImaginaryPogue · Apr 3, 2012

jcoates said:
Charlie was the most successful of the four in singles, competing in several JGPs and Junior Nationals. I think that he could have been a success in pairs as well with the right sized partner.

As to Charlie's facial expressions, they have improved significantly ever since the success of the Bollywood program. He has greater range than he used to and establishes far more eye contact with both Meryl and the judges and audience than he is give credit for. He actually varies between bubbly and cheerful and confidently showy in sections of D/F. The old critique about his expression and eye contact has become a bit of a reliable fall back and somewhat cliched when distinguishing between the two teams. The same easy, predictability can be found in the critiques of V/M which almost always default to praising their connection, lines, musicality, etc. Even when they are off, the same canned lines of praise find their way into various posts. I feel it would be better to attempt to take a look at each team with fresh eyes each time they take the ice rather than relying on years of established perceptions. For example, I had no issue with V/M winning 4CC. they were clearly better in the end. I am not convinced of their clear superiority in Nice. Still it seems that there was a shift in perception that carried over between competitions and which established a new judging paradigm.

Taking another team into account, I felt the W/P could make a very strong case for performance of the night in the FD. I certainly thought they were noticeably better than P/B and were finally knocking on the door of the top two. There was a sureness to everything they did that has been slowly developing over the last two years. It was nice to see it come together as it reminded me somewhat of the breakthroughs V/M (2008) and D/W (2009) each had that forced the establishment to take notice of them.

Yeah, I know, it's cliched to refer to D/W with anything other than enthusiasm for their improvement. And there was definitely noticeable improvement in the SD in terms of expressivity. However, as cliched as it might be, my response is an honest one to their worlds skate to Fliedermaus. I remember Meryl's face quite vividly but he could've been wearing a Phantom mask for all I know. If you've got a pair of fresh eyes you can lend me, I'll try them on for size (after, you know, cleaning out the rose-tints).

jcoates · Apr 3, 2012

IP, I was not referring to you specifically. Of almost all of V/M's most ardent fans here on GS, you are far more fair and open minded toward D/W than most. I hope you did not mistake my meaning in my previous post. I was not singling you out.

Ice Dance - Free Dance

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