Ice Dance - Free Dance

calstudent said:

-.- i'm in no way trying to find or formulate a "conspiracy theory". all i'm saying is meryl and charlie were undermarked. and yes, general audience cannot differentiate between a level four element from a level three or even a level two. but audience reaction does tell us how each team performed their program and the performance aspect of their routine, namely choreography, interpretation and performance marks, would normally reflect how it was received by most people.

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LOL. I'm still waiting for one of the experts here to tell me why Marlie got a level 3 on one of their step sequences cp'd to Voir's level 4. It was one of their costliest supposed weaknesses. So far I've heard Mrs P say they needed to be more precise. I'd like a more "precise" answer than that - where exactly were they less than precise?

I have to say I'm leaning toward Hersh here. If the difference in levels is so invisible that after 28 pages none of the fabulous experts here has yet been able to identify it, then to hell with it.

And when you have a rivalry like V/M & D/W, which is generally seen as a rivalry for the ages, both teams quite equal (how many times have I heard this here), and then the tech committee calling levels represents one team's country but not another, then yes, I think you can talk about national bias.

Not so sure about the crowd reaction as the crowd would have given P/B the gold if they could have (and C/J the bronze! lol), but yes, it seemed to me that D/W were underscored on choreo, performance, and interpretation relative to V/M.

eyria said:

I'm a big fan also of Maia & Alex. I hope it didn't sound otherwise. I just love them--their speed, chemistry, wonderful unison, smoothness, and beautiful posture. Alex, in particular, is one of the best male ice dancers I've ever seen. The quality of his partnering is just so superb.

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No not at all! I got that you like them too. Just wanted to respond to some of your concerns. I think they are valid ones, especially in wake of a bad competition.

I think they have a bright future and I'm sure that this setback this season will be a big blip in the big picture. After all they are only 17 and 20.

Spun Silver said:

LOL. I'm still waiting for one of the experts here to tell me why Marlie got a level 3 on one of their step sequences cp'd to Voir's level 4. It was one of their costliest supposed weaknesses. So far I've heard Mrs P say they needed to be more precise. I'd like a more "precise" answer than that - where exactly were they less than precise?

I have to say I'm leaning toward Hersh here. If the difference in levels is so invisible that after 28 pages none of the fabulous experts here has yet been able to identify it, then to hell with it.

And when you have a rivalry like V/M & D/W, which is generally seen as a rivalry for the ages, both teams quite equal (how many times have I heard this here), and then the tech committee calling levels represents one team's country but not another, then yes, I think you can talk about national bias.

Not so sure about the crowd reaction as the crowd would have given P/B the gold if they could have (and C/J the bronze! lol), but yes, it seemed to me that D/W were underscored on choreo, performance, and interpretation relative to V/M.

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Sorry for my lack of a "precise" answer Spun. The problem is, is I don't know at this point. I haven't really watched the videos to say one way or the other. My post only explain what feedback the judges were sending with the scores, i.e. level 3 step sequence all season long, they're missing an edge somewhere...But again, I have to re-watch the videos to see if I can figure it out. Again, I wish Doris was here to fill in the gap.

As for the politics card — it's pretty well known that judges can be influenced by any sort of buzz or perception. I'll just leave it at that.

Regardless, I hope that D/W doesn't dwell too much on the judging and whether it was unfair or not. They really have nothing to gain by dwelling on it.

Regardless, I hope that D/W doesn't dwell too much on the judging and whether it was unfair or not. They really have nothing to gain by dwelling on it.

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I hope that they feel very good about their performances; I really don't see a lot of what they could have done better. They shouldn't waste time dwelling on whether the judging was fair, but I hope they and their coaches will get solid direction from the judges about what needs to be done for next year. And again, as a highly competitive person, I cannot imagine sharing a coaching staff with my closest rival.

Hmm, I wish some of the dancers had the passion we posters have. I really am torn between Davis and WHite and Virtue and Moir. I like the program in the FD of D and W better; I do think they performed it well. But when you break down the elements and pcs I can see why V and M won. As for the SD I thought V and M should be substantially higher (almost like justice was served in the freedance when I think V and M should have edged D and W but had a wider margin that I thought - makes up for the fact Vand M should have won the SD by more. IMHO We are not judges so it is hard for us really to judge and in some cases if you are objective you can say you don't like the artistry of so and so but can give it a perfect mark - because it is not your cup of tea but it was awesome just you prefer ie. Italian over Chinese food but the Chinese was perfection for Chinese it's just a preference. Sadly, while free speech and discussion is awesome it ironically may be part of the reason skating is dying or lost so many viewers. THe people on these p osts are fanatics but the rest of the world. So if they hear us whining and bickering about unfair judging their perception becomes enhanced as to the unfairness or scandalous behaviour - in other words we may be our worst enemies as to selling the sport, making it grow. 2002 was a double edged sword. There's a price to pay sadly. Life isn't fair. You could have one team that is good at doing only one style and another that is good at several styles but maybe not quite as good as the team who can do only one thing. I think of that a bit with V and M v. D and W except V and M can compete with their many styles. You can't give them bonus points for showing diversity but really when you deal with karma not that D and W have done anything wrong or mean, V and M have shown great versatility - Mahler to pink floyd to Audrey and Fred. Technically speaking in the fd I can see why the edge went to V and M - cleaner edges. PCS I'd say V and M are better at ss as for interpretation I do think this was D and W's music but V and M really did a great job with their characters - making characters but perhaps not really Audrey or Fred.

I love D and W; I want to see them in shows. I know how selfish. They should retire and make us all smile. Then Charlie can be with Tanith and they all can live happily ever after. I love their skating!!!!!

Mrs. P said:

As I said in other posts, I think while this competition (and 4CCs) didn't go their way this year, I see this year as very much a setback than a complete reset. I think they've been tinkering so much with the SD and the FD this year in an attempt to perform it better that it probably unraveled them a bit at these last few competitions. I got the sense that both of them really wanted to prove that their bronze was not a fluke and that the could compete with the best. I get the sense that psyched them both out a bit — more with Alex than Maia.

I still think that despite the "safer" programs, they did make some progress this year, though it didn't necessarily lead to a World or 4CC medal. I think they really upped the difficulty of their programs and even though the SD remained their thorn on their side, I get the sense they did learn a lot about performing.

I'm not really worried about the sibling relationship. As lcd mention a few pages ago, Maia and Alex have a different kind of chemistry that could be translated in programs. There's this teasing, dry humor yet loyal sidekick dynamic to their sibling relationship that I think would work great in dance.

I think we saw flashes of that in their past programs -- in Cinema Paradiso, even last year's Smile program. And actually, you could see that they were working on that in this year's FD too, especially in the practice sessions with Corky. It just didn't show up yesterday after the twizzle meltdown.

I admit I'm a big fan, and I will probably support them regardless of what they do. But I truly believe they can and WILL come back strong next year.

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:yes: I couldn't have said it better, Mrs. P!

leafygreens said:

Why would D/W's step sequence all of a sudden not be "as difficult"? Do you think their coaches would let either team go all season competing a step sequence that wasn't the proper level of difficulty? Is that same step sequence just all of a sudden not as difficult at 4C's and Worlds, but it was difficult before? Why was D/W rated so high in everything early in the season, and then, later in the season when they are better than they were before, they get lower scores? If D/W were overmarked in the beginning of the season, why wouldn't their levels/scores stay somewhat static as they improved, rather than dropping so precipitously? It defies logic.



If D/W said the same thing, would people get over it? Don't think so. The judges may not care, but I as a skating fan care, and so do many others. V/M are celebrities, in positions of responsibility. The fact that Scott said that comment and expected no accountability for it is extremely telling.

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Well said, exactly!!

Spun Silver said:

LOL. I'm still waiting for one of the experts here to tell me why Marlie got a level 3 on one of their step sequences cp'd to Voir's level 4. It was one of their costliest supposed weaknesses. So far I've heard Mrs P say they needed to be more precise. I'd like a more "precise" answer than that - where exactly were they less than precise?

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http://ice-dance.com/component/cont...4-2012-worlds-free-dance-recap-by-the-numbers

Mrs. P said:

RE: twizzles.

If you want to be outraged at the scores, the Twizzlers aren't the place to do it anyway.

Meryl and Charlie beat Tessa and Scott here with a +GOE of 1.29 vs 1.00.

Also Davis and White got 5 +3 and the rest were 2s. Virtue and Moir got just one 3, mostly 2 and even a +1. So the judges said, yes Meryl and Charlie executed the twizzles better.

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Whatever their twizzle score was, it should be higher, or V/M's lower. Plus, the twizzles are not the only reason D/W are better than V/M, it's their speed throughout the ENTIRE program, which makes the whole program harder. Their choreography was also miles above V/M. I don't know why the argument is, no matter what the music, that V/M skate to "risky" music and D/W skate to "safe" music and therefore V/M's programs are always, always more difficult. That's complete BS. As if D/W's Indian dance, which had never been done before, was "safe." V/M's program this year was so boring, not exciting and did not grab me as a viewer. I don't care what kind of "romantic connection" they have. If you have ever skated before, you know that doing a move at high speed is a lot harder than doing it slowly. So why the slow, romantic thing always makes people think V/M are more difficult, I have no idea.

keep whining leafy you are not a judge, D&W deserved the placement they got, yes they are athlectic and fast but their skating is sloppy, they have poor lines and zero connection on the ice that is why they lost to a better team.

calstudent said:

ugh people, stop. we all love scott and tessa. they have an awesome chemistry together and their programs - my god, from valse triste to pink floyd to mahler - were awe-inspiring. we get it. i was even rooting for them during the vancouver olympics. but there's no way, no ******* way you could possibly argue they outskated meryl and charlie in Nice this year. they were fast, crisp, and their choreography was far better than anything we've seen in the last two years (i.e. did you notice how their lifts fit the music perfectly?). I've seen both programs multiple times on youtube this year and if anything commentators seem to agree with me. they were dazzled by the die fledermaus FD and underwhelmed by the funny face routine. So sure, go ahead, you can argue for as long as you want on how funny face was "ground-breaking" (which it clearly wasn't. mahler? yes. pink floyd? a BIG YES. funny face? not so much. i.e. Grishuk & Platov in 1994, in case you've forgotten, used an American rock song to win gold at the olympics) or technically superior to die fledermaus (now really?? -.- not to mention that tessa and scott weren't at their best), but meryl and charlie should've won the FD. or at the very least beaten the Canadians in Program Components score. if you're still not convinced, i dare you to look at the crowd reactions again and see for yourself which program stood out more for the audience.

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Meryl & Charlie also weren't at their best, and they lost because of their diagonal step sequence. They weren't hitting their deep edges. It's also not about crowd reaction. The Russian crowd last year really loved V/M's FD, but V/M still lost because they weren't clean.

leafygreens said:

Whatever their twizzle score was, it should be higher, or V/M's lower. Plus, the twizzles are not the only reason D/W are better than V/M, it's their speed throughout the ENTIRE program, which makes the whole program harder. Their choreography was also miles above V/M. I don't know why the argument is, no matter what the music, that V/M skate to "risky" music and D/W skate to "safe" music and therefore V/M's programs are always, always more difficult. That's complete BS. As if D/W's Indian dance, which had never been done before, was "safe." V/M's program this year was so boring, not exciting and did not grab me as a viewer. I don't care what kind of "romantic connection" they have. If you have ever skated before, you know that doing a move at high speed is a lot harder than doing it slowly. So why the slow, romantic thing always makes people think V/M are more difficult, I have no idea.

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I agree with you RE: D/W music. I think they have quite a range, it's just that people, wrongly in my opinion, lump it all in the "drama/OTT" category. Oh that Bollywood dance? It's just drama, Indian style! Phantom of the Opera, that's just drama with masks! Samson and Delilah, it's biblical drama!

OK, actually I doubt people see it that way, but I'm exaggerating to make the point that I feel that is an incorrect perception that D/W doesn't have range.

For what it's worth, we should credit D/W for the Bollywood dance because it did bring Ice Dancing in the mainstream. I had a ton of friends — who don't follow skating at all — post the YouTube video all over Facebook and Twitter.

all that said:

http://ice-dance.com/component/cont...4-2012-worlds-free-dance-recap-by-the-numbers

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I appreciate this all being spelled out, but I'm still not buying the explanation. Ok, so Meryl "bent at the waist" slightly for the diagonal step. What about the comment that

"the two teams were scored equally in the Performance mark, 9.68. Virtue & Moir earned slightly higher marks for the four remaining categories. This, of course, is where subjectivity creeps in fairly easily. What makes the different between a 9.50 and a 9.75 in two stellar performances? It is not something that is easily defined, and since the judges' identities are secret, (and Judge #1 listed for Virtue & Moir is not necessarily Judge #1 on Davis & White's protocol sheet) we cannot see how they directly compared the two teams."

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How are their performance qualities equal? D/W were faster and more outgoing, which makes the performance harder because you are selling it, rather than just being into only each other (in the "bubble" -- ugh). Not that the audience should be judging, but they clearly enjoyed D/W more, which says a lot about the performance quality. Not to mention, D/W performed this program better than previously, yet got a lower score. How is that? D/W may have messed up a diagonal step, but they should not be equal to V/M in other aspects of their skating, they should be above them. As the author of that article wrote, the PCS scores are so subjective, with no explanation. A diagonal step is explained. What about the rest? It's extremely murky/suspicious. D/W's incredible speed/precision should equate to higher scores on their other elements, not equal to another team that is slower.

I disagree that performing a faster and more outgoing outgoing program is harder than skating a "bubble" or draw you in program. It really depends on the style of the skaters and their preference. in addition, I don't really find V/M so "slow" that they deserve to be penalized or knocked down in components. I found their speed completely appropriate for their program. However, if they were performing a faster tempo music, like D/W bollywood/Die Fliedermaus, I would have wished to see more speed. It really in my mind depends on the appropriateness of the program/choreography. I hate seeing skaters "rush" through parts of the program which should be slower or more lyrical.

leafygreens said:

Whatever their twizzle score was, it should be higher, or V/M's lower. Plus, the twizzles are not the only reason D/W are better than V/M, it's their speed throughout the ENTIRE program, which makes the whole program harder. Their choreography was also miles above V/M. I don't know why the argument is, no matter what the music, that V/M skate to "risky" music and D/W skate to "safe" music and therefore V/M's programs are always, always more difficult. That's complete BS. As if D/W's Indian dance, which had never been done before, was "safe." V/M's program this year was so boring, not exciting and did not grab me as a viewer. I don't care what kind of "romantic connection" they have. If you have ever skated before, you know that doing a move at high speed is a lot harder than doing it slowly. So why the slow, romantic thing always makes people think V/M are more difficult, I have no idea.

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You know, just because you keep saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. These are your opinions, not facts. Others feel differently. And they are just as entitled to their opinions. And, gasp, some of us believe V/M won fair and square. The notion that V/M are slow is simply hyperbolic nonsense.

As for the music choices....I don't think either team's music was particularly "risky." Both are pretty standard ice dance/figure skating fare. Personally, I think D/W's choreography was the best FD program they've ever had. Previously, I've found their free dances to be rather forgettable. I've preferred other V/M programs to Funny Face, which isn't to say that Funny Face is a bad program, I just liked Mahler and Valse Triste, in particular, better. Personally, again, I'm torn between which team's FD I liked better. I think D/W's was a choreographic masterpiece that really masked their weaknesses brilliantly and played up their strengths. But I loved the personality that V/M brought to Funny Face, and, as always, their pure skating and technique was gorgeous and really on display. So for it to come down to, largely, a technical level seems appropriate. I gather from other posters here and elsewhere that D/W have been getting a level 3 on that footwork sequence virtually all season long, so this can't have even been a huge surprise for them — but if I'm wrong about that I stand corrected in advance.

As for the overall gold medal, even had the FD's ended up tied, or D/W slightly ahead, I think V/M should have rightly taken it on the strength of the SD. V/M really were that much better than D/W in that segment this competition.

Phil Hersh's take on the ice dance competition:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...dance-at-world-meet-20120329,0,2687379.column

Hersh doesn`t know or understand that sport he should not be commentating on it period.

romanoff81 said:

keep whining leafy you are not a judge, D&W deserved the placement they got, yes they are athlectic and fast but their skating is sloppy, they have poor lines and zero connection on the ice that is why they lost to a better team.

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Even as a huge V&M fan, I find your charactization of Meryl & Charlie as "sloppy" with "poor lines and zero connection" to be ridiculous. V&M are more precise with their feet but that hardly makes D&W sloppy. And the area in which D&W have improved most this season is in their lines, their matching lines and their connection, all of which is showcased brilliantly in the Fledermaus program.

In spite of Leafgreens assertion that D&W are faster than V&M, yes they are a wee bit faster, but not so much that it makes much difference in the scoring. Where V&M have a huge edge over D&W is in their unison. V&M move in perfect unison with excellent matching lines, even when they aren't looking at one another. D&W have excellent unison and matching lines, but it's not the perfect match that V&M have.

I thought that yesterday, D&W had the better performance but I do think that Funny Face is the more difficult program and more detailed. I'm glad I wasn't a judge because it was hard to pick between the two. I'd give it to V&M on the basis of their superior SD but what a treat the last two flights of dance were to watch.

And while I agree that W&P absolutely beat P&B in the SD, in the FD the French skated the heck out of that program of theirs (which is still a piece of crap IMO). It was the best I've ever seen them skate and their win was deserved.

Dragonlady said:

Even as a huge V&M fan, I find your charactization of Meryl & Charlie as "sloppy" with "poor lines and zero connection" to be ridiculous. V&M are more precise with their feet but that hardly makes D&W sloppy. And the area in which D&W have improved most this season is in their lines, their matching lines and their connection, all of which is showcased brilliantly in the Fledermaus program.

In spite of Leafgreens assertion that D&W are faster than V&M, yes they are a wee bit faster, but not so much that it makes much difference in the scoring. Where V&M have a huge edge over D&W is in their unison. V&M move in perfect unison with excellent matching lines, even when they aren't looking at one another. D&W have excellent unison and matching lines, but it's not the perfect match that V&M have.

I thought that yesterday, D&W had the better performance but I do think that Funny Face is the more difficult program and more detailed. I'm glad I wasn't a judge because it was hard to pick between the two. I'd give it to V&M on the basis of their superior SD but what a treat the last two flights of dance were to watch.

And while I agree that W&P absolutely beat P&B in the SD, in the FD the French skated the heck out of that program of theirs (which is still a piece of crap IMO). It was the best I've ever seen them skate and their win was deserved.

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Nice post.

I don't think I could pick either, to be honest. But I agree that V/M did win in the SD. I question more the margin of the FD, personally. I've pretty much poured over the protocols, so at this point, it's rewatching time.