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Thread: Ice Dance - Free Dance

  1. #376
    Custom Title Tigger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    leafygreensI seriously doubt the judges care at all what Scott Moir thinks of them. I'd probably say the exact same thing if I felt that I worked my tail off to get to a certain point but it didn't pay off the way I wanted it to. People get frustrated, get over it.

    I think it's laughable that people actually think the judges propped V/M up because Scott was upset in a media article. Seriously?
    Thank you!! What I find funny and have ever since it happened was how many complain about the pat answers the skaters give after a performance and, "Oh...How I wish the skaters would just say how they really felt in these things." However when that finally happens, the skater gets labelled a stuck up jerk from now until the end of time. Scott said something stupid in the heat of the moment in front of a microphone. It's called being human and it happens.

    Also Scott's a bit of a character and people like that don't always think before speaking. Goodness knows Kurt Browning's been on certain people's hate lists from back when he did his first commentating for NBC at 94 Worlds and called Michelle Kwan "kind of sexy". Even he said he screwed up on that one and didn't think how that would sound once spoken, but I remember when CBC hired him for this current commentating job, many were still holding that against him and getting on their high horses "fearing" for what he'd say now. Not that the actual facts 94 Worlds had been the first time he'd ever done commentating of any kind and that Kurt had learned from it ever came into it. Oh no...SkateGods forbid!!

    Just as some have a grudge against Kurt for something so stupid, I won't be surprised to keep seeing what Scott said in December to keep popping up from now until who knows when as well. Some just can't let go for whatever reason.

    Mrs. P, if you've got a problem w/a poster and how they're posting, then use the little triangle w/the ! mark in it that's in the lower left corner of all the posts around here and report that poster to the Mods. BTW if you think things in here are heated and nasty, might I suggest you never go into FSU's Competition Threads. This *is* the tame and classy place and what I've seen in here tonight is not that bad compared to other events/results people had problems w/in the past.

    What I don't care for is when someone who isn't a Moderator decides to post multiple postings telling us all how to behave. That's how things are on a skating board during Worlds and Olympics. They can get heated and nasty. It's been that way ever since the mid 90's when the online skating boards first started and I don't see it changing. That's what happens when people invest so much into a sport or anything they feel so personally about.

    If you don't care for what's being said, either report it or ignore it, but don't keep lecturing us please. That gets rather old too.

    Now on to my thoughts about Meryl and Charlie....

    I'm not mad about where V/M and D/W ended up on the podium. I have a far different problem when it comes to Meryl and Charlie...

    I truly do believe that V/M and D/W ended up exactly where I believe they deserved and regardless of what some might think about the marks, they're not that far apart. Not really. Yes, I do love Tessa and Scott and am thrilled after everything they've been through the last two years they got their title back. My problem is that I want to love Meryl and Charlie too, but only like them because there's just...Something missing there for me and I can't put my finger on it. I'm not sure if it's because due to their speed they can cross over into frantic skating so easily at times or (and this could be it for me) IMO they're not that versititle.

    IMO, I think it just might be their speed that's the problem there too. Because they're so fast (we call them the Whirling Dervishes of Skating, as the speed on their twizzles and spins just blow us away every time) there's only so much music out there that works w/them and they need that powerful music. To me, their S&D FD from the 08-09 Season is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I still think that's the best program they've ever had. Even to today. It fit them, the music allowed them to use their speed to their advantage and also their rawness I pick up from them also worked w/that music.

    That could be why some of us just haven't been able to warm up to their FD this year. I usually adore a program done to what is one of my very favourite pieces of Classical Music, but a program like that needs softnees and finesse. It doesn't matter how hard they work at it, Meryl and Charlie will never be soft or finesse type skaters. As I've said, they have this rawness to them and their skating that no one else out there has, but instead of working w/what they've got, their speed and rawness, they seem to be trying to do the opposite kind of programs and...It does feel a bit fake to some and I hate saying that about them, but there it is.

    I actually think something like W/P's Je Suis Malade FD would be incredable for Meryl and Charlie. It's powerful, it's passionate and raw and they would just shine IMO. Instead, the direction they have been going down just isn't doing it for me and others and is a dis service to them as well. If there's anyone in Canton who need to go somewhere else for Choreography, it's Meryl and Charlie IMO.

    This could be the reason why some of us feel, that while Meryl and Charlie were so good at the beginning of the Season, the program seemed to stagnate a wee bit as the Season went on. Because perhaps they'd already taken it as far as they could take it. Whereas if you go back to look at Tessa and Scott's programs, both of them, they're *very* different programs that were skated the last two days than what was debuted back at Skate Canada. Because of that, the programs kept evolving and growing and hadn't yet reached that peak that Meryl and Charlie did right at the very first.

    As I said, it's all JMO, but I just can't seem to warm up to Meryl and Charlie and I want to. I also think it's part of the reason why many of us get that whiff of something not "real" about their skating. Because they don't fit that cookie cutter Dance mold, but the coaching team behind them is trying to do just that and it's not helping. Sure an Olympic Silver, a couple of World medals and a World Title are amazing accomplishments, but I have this strange feeling Meryl and Charlie have not even come close to reaching their potential and I don't think they will if they stay in Canton.

    And now I need to end this before I babble anymore. :oD

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Hm, OK. I guess I could see where you're coming from. Interesting point of doing "American" music in the European standard of ID. That is probably why the Shibs' piece was not well received (though they did American music last year and that was scored much better...). The key is execution, I guess?

    But why should D/W be penalized for doing music that suits them this year? Just because they didn't pick challenging music (per the definition, I suppose), the program itself was still quite challenging with a lot of great transitions. (I'm not really aiming this at you IP, just thinking out loud.)

    Music is just one essence of the FD...
    Shibs: Well, yes. The PCS the Shibs received year to year remained within two points at Worlds 2011 and 2012. The TES... well, that varied by 12+ points. Additionally, with the Shibs, it couldn't help but feel of more-of-the-same to a good portion of people - V/M went from a Latin medley FD to Funny Face (and FF wasn't that well received either, as much as I love it).

    D/W: Were they penalized for a perfect music choice? I mean, the hurricane of hype surrounding Fliedermaus didn't do much for me and even now I admire their technical facility without being impressed by it in any way here, but were they actually penalized for it in your perception? I'm a huge fan of Funny Face, if only for Donen's glorious use of colour, though, so take that into consideration.

  3. #378
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    It was really sad to see the shibs make such a big mistake; they seem like really nice people and technically sound but they will be back. I have seen a lot of the top teams skate better their fd including D and W and V and M. It is so close between them and espite the scores I think P and B were way overmarked. I know I will get killed but heck I can see W and P and I and K both beating them here with these performances - however, the momentum was clearly with P and B being in France. I really sense though they are about to be overtaken by at least two if not up to 4 or 5 teams. they have great concepts although I do see similar moves from them each year. P and B could have lost a point for good taste for their costume this year in the FD too. I guess the mommy started to unravel??? LOL Didn't even have enough material or bandages for her poor nose. I think one of the poster pointed out something - real judges are trained to look for certain things. Even in 2002 at the Olympics the issue about B and S versus S and P from Canada could easily have been decided by who had higher artistry marks. It was possible for B and S to win on artistry evenif their technical elements were only second and in fact some say the transitions, skating skills et al were far better by B and s so that could also explain the win. Likewise V and M though not my favourite dance I can see why they may have been given first over D and W; i do think D and W could have been closer in the FD but should have been marked down in the Short dance. I still cannot see why p and b were so close to d and w. In fact if anything p and b should have been thrilled with the bronze and holding off Weaver and Poje and heck I and K as well. Only three medals. I admit I don't like always what Scott Moir says although I am not sure if we understand the context. However, I do appreciate him being real. AS much as I like Michelle Kwan for example sometimes her answer while classy are so miss america that they are of little value or substances. It is refreshing to hear some honesty. Johnny Weir called it as he sees it and that makes skating and news interesting. Do we really need to hear "I just needed to skate for myself, I can't control the judges or the medals all I have to do is be satisfied I am the very best and learn from each and every opportunity yada yada yada." It's almost a useless statement.

    I am happy in a way Russia held on to three spots; thrilled P and B got bronze but I sadly think it is time for them to go as much as I like to say go when you want too - it's time they really are lucky they got such amazing marks. They could have the bronze curse anyways and we could see them down in eight or so - ala Shibitanis and wasn't that the same for the year after the Germans won bronze or the Israeli's won bronze. Got to know when to leave hopefully on top.

  4. #379
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    But now that I put my thought out loud, was D/W penalized for using "safe" music and was V/M rewarded for using "risky" music?

    I'd say the answer is no. As I said, V/M only beat D/W in PCS by 0.85. And that margin came on 4 out of 5 PCS scores. They were tied in performance and composition with 9.68.

    As for the other scores where music would be a factor:
    Choreography — V/M won by .18
    Interpretation — V/M won by .18

    If you look at the protocals:
    Both couples got 9s and a couple of 10s. It really came down to who gave a 9.75 instead of a 9.5. We're talking picking hairs here! How would you determine that you give a team a 9.5 vs. a 9.75?

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    D/W's twizzles are the best in the business. V/M's are much slower. How they got a 4 is a travesty of justice.
    Once again, levels are not directly related with how WELL something is performed. V/M completed the requirements to receive a level 4. End of story.

  6. #381
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Mrs. P, if you've got a problem w/a poster and how they're posting, then use the little triangle w/the ! mark in it that's in the lower left corner of all the posts around here and report that poster to the Mods. BTW if you think things in here are heated and nasty, might I suggest you never go into FSU's Competition Threads. This *is* the tame and classy place and what I've seen in here tonight is not that bad compared to other events/results people had problems w/in the past.
    Sure I could use the report poster thread; but I prefer just saying it to the general audience. That's just how I roll. I don't particularly enjoy reporting people unless they're being trolls. I believe in diplomatic gentle reminders, but that's me.

    I've heard that other boards are much nastier, yes, but that doesn't mean everyone should accept nastiness, even if it's it's less.


    Also (not aimed directly at you Tigger, but just using your thoughts as a base):
    I get that some people can't warm up to D/W, but I can't agree that they're doomed or they aren't growing. If you just go an look at D/W from the 2006-2007 to now, you can see they have grown leaps and bounds. And they will continue to grow, because that's their MO.

    And Die Fideramus is a different program for D/W. It's not a HUGE departure for those two, but it's nothing like Samson and Delilah or Phantom of the Opera or even the Tango they did last year. And personally, I like their interpretation. I sort of see it as a more jovial, fun version. The music they took from the opera are from those fun and joyful scenes, so to me I think their interpretation works.

    There are people who have said the same thing about V/M (can't warm up or do not prefer their programs), but somehow those people are taken as "delusional D/W fans" who don't get the greatness of V/M. (not saying you're saying this Tigger, but I've seen that said quite a bit on these boards).

    So you don't enjoy D/W and think V/M is better. That's fine. In fact, it's chocolate or strawberry as far as I'm concerned. In fact. I like both flavors.

    ETA: I realize I haven't said much about Funny Face. I like it. Actually V/M did a great job on it and I do agree they added some great nuance to it since they performed it earlier this eason. But I think their best performance came at 4CC, not here today. But I think they did enough in the SD to win anyway. I think I would probably question the margin in the FD (again, watch the dances see where the levels came into play) and perhaps the PCS could be a smige closer (but as I said, pulling hairs, so I'm not sure how that's possible).

    I do not think Scott and Tessa were Fred and Aubrey. Quite frankly, I don't want them to be. Fred was in his 50s and had a huge age gap. I think Scott and Tessa did find with their on characterization of it.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-29-2012 at 11:19 PM.

  7. #382
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    I find V/M/s twizzles very fast, totally in sync, and done closer to each other than any other team.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Funny Face the movie suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccckkkkkk kkkkkksssssssssssssss.... Funny Face the FD is beautiful...

    I like D/W's program a tad more, but Tessa and Scott really did a great job playing their characters.
    I've never seen Funny Face, so I don't have an opinion; but oh, reading this made my heart happy~!

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    The judging and technical panels were stacked against Davis/White in this competition (the technical specialist was Canadian) They had no chance to win this event, and the judging today proved it. They outskated Virtue/Moir, but were not rewarded for their effort. Many other competitors received season's best scores at this event, but the scores for Davis/White were very low.

  10. #385
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    RE: twizzles.

    If you want to be outraged at the scores, the Twizzlers aren't the place to do it anyway.

    Meryl and Charlie beat Tessa and Scott here with a +GOE of 1.29 vs 1.00.

    Also Davis and White got 5 +3 and the rest were 2s. Virtue and Moir got just one 3, mostly 2 and even a +1. So the judges said, yes Meryl and Charlie executed the twizzles better.

  11. #386
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    Well on a positive note - we still have WTT to look forward to....The overall placements from 4th to 10th were interesting. Sochi is still 2 seasons away and nothing is set in stone....I think if the ISU keeps this "uplifting rule" until Sochi the gap will narrow between the teams.

  12. #387
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    The judging and technical panels were stacked against Davis/White in this competition (the technical specialist was Canadian) They had no chance to win this event, and the judging today proved it. They outskated Virtue/Moir, but were not rewarded for their effort. Many other competitors received season's best scores at this event, but the scores for Davis/White were very low.
    Neither D/W OR V/M got their seasons best.

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    The judging and technical panels were stacked against Davis/White in this competition (the technical specialist was Canadian) They had no chance to win this event, and the judging today proved it. They outskated Virtue/Moir, but were not rewarded for their effort. Many other competitors received season's best scores at this event, but the scores for Davis/White were very low.
    Well, and if the american pair wouldr win and the tech specialist would be an American some people would say -- "oh but the tech specialist is fair and he/she has nothing to do with winning the competition". "Americans deserved to win."
    Also before the competition fans of D/W said things like "V/M are going down" "V/M can not win" "V/M are much worse and D/W improved so much but Canadians did not" so now they have to say "it is all Tech specialist's fault"
    I think that the Canadian and Amercian pairs are very close and the differences between them are infinitesimal. Sometimes V/M are better, sometimes D/W are better. Some people prefer V/M, others prefer D/W. and the ice is slippery.
    Myself I enjoy watching both pairs, although today I liked V/M better.

  14. #389
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    I just saw V/M and D/W's programs on Youtube and I thought D/W was much better. V/M's unison was slightly off in this performance compared to D/W's usual perfect unison, and V/M's edges did not seem to be as clean and smooth as compared to their usual standard. D/W were faster than V/M, they had more pizazz, and their choreography appeared more daring and complex.

  15. #390
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    D/W's twizzles are the best in the business. V/M's are much slower. How they got a 4 is a travesty of justice.
    Twizzle level isn't about speed or quality. It's about difficulty. V/M have at least 4 rotations in two of the twizzles, different entry edges and rotation directions and three extra features
    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf (Page 58)

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