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Thread: Ice Dance - Free Dance

  1. #391
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    "choreography appeared more daring and complex."? Really?
    For me it was nice, very pretty, and somehow empty . I prefer their previous programs, this one does not do much for me.
    btw at the beginning of the competition I noticed a pair from Azerbaijan, they had spectacular lifts, modern choreography and very interesting music.
    Last edited by katia; 03-30-2012 at 12:08 AM.

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by katia View Post
    "choreography appeared more daring and complex."? Really?
    For me it was nice, very pretty, and somehow empty . I prefer their previous programs, this one does not do much for me.
    btw at the beginning of the competition I noticed a pair from Azerbaijan, they had spectacular lifts, modern choreography and very interesting music.
    Appeared more daring and complex not compared to their previous programs but to V/M's Funny Face program.

  3. #393
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    W/P should have won the bronze....the French didn't skate well. It's almost like they were told "Honey, postpond your surgery. Just show up, skate, don't $#@% up and the bronze will be yours. Promise."

  4. #394
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    Okay, now that I got back from a quick 2-mile run, my brain is clear! Yay!

    Anyway, closer look at the scores:

    The majority of the +GOE lead (75 percent or .28 of a point) came from one of the diagonal in-hold step sequence, the same one D/W got a level 3 on.

    Here is the +GOE breakdown element by element
    Diagonal in Hold Step Sequence: V/M won on levels (1.5 difference) + .28 margin (2.14 vs 1.86)
    Twizzles (both got level 4): D/W won by .29 of a point (1.29 vs 1.00)
    Circular Step Sequence (both got level 3): Tied. (both got 2.00)
    Spin (both got level 4): D/W won by .07 (1.00 vs. 93) — virtual tie, really.
    Lifts: V/M wins by .43 ( 5.21 vs 4.78)

    So as you can, from an execution standpoint...it was really close. They were prettty much tied in two elements, V/M won in lifts and step sequence and D/W won in twizzles.

    Looking back at past competitions, D/W has not scored level four on that hand-in-hold step sequence for their FD all this season, not even in the GPF final. In fact, they changed the step sequence from a Midline-in-hold step sequence to a diagonal in hold step sequence. V/M on the other hand has consistently earned level 4 in their head-to-head matchups.

    So I guess Meryl and Charlie will have to work on being more precise on the steps, which is totally doable.

    So in the end both the V/M fans and the D/W fans had truth in their assessments of the two FDs.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-30-2012 at 12:43 AM.

  5. #395
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    Meryl and Charlie will be fine, and they are gracious as always, unlike sulky "we're the best" Scott. Meryl and Charlie will continue to work hard as always too -- they have the best precision of any team at the exceptional high speed they generate, and that can't be denied.

    Yes, V/M had fine blade work, but they were skating pretty slow in sections, so at a slower speed its easier to get blade placement exact. What a cheesy dud of a program their Funny Face is. Sure they made improvements and skated it better in Nice than at the beginning of the season. But it is too bad that this FF program won V/M Worlds -- what an awful shame that D/W's better music and program (which D/W skated quite beautifully as always with their great speed and intricacy) was downgraded so that V/M could come out on top by a significant margin. I still believe the scoring for D/W was influenced by the fact that there were no U.S. representatives on the judging and technical panels. Even W/P had better music and overall greater impact with the drama of their program than V/M did. A lot of the top couples had better-themed programs than V/M. Okay so V/M won on mastery of technique and line, but what a shame that it was for this program. They are definitely not head and shoulders above D/W and the final scores should not have been that far apart -- smacks to me of a bit of insurance from those on the panels who favored V/M. I also dislike the fact that Scott has been so vocal with the media claiming that he and Tessa are the best. Looks like TPTB perked up and agreed with him to the point of there being no U.S. officials on the judging and technical panels. Perhaps Zoueva and Shpilband have a secret formula working to keep their teams training together without conflict, but I do wonder how the magic formula can last if V/M are going to be kept on a pedestal by the judges for the next two years. D/W and V/M are different in their styles and strengths but overall there is not much that separates them in terms of talent and ability, except for subjective perceptions (and ever-present politics).

    The French P/B are quite good, but were definitely held up b/c of their veteran status, clean skate in their home country, and their technical skills. Sure they improved the character of this old old program to a degree, but by this time, I was tired of seeing the same old program with all the bandages. I thought W/P should have been in third, and I thought the Italians C/L should have been in front of the Russians I/K. Too bad for the Shibs this season. They worked very hard but are still so young and have time to improve -- they had to stretch themselves this year for the Latin style of dance. Not great tho' how the Shibs were torn down with criticism so much b/c many were upset they won bronze last year. This was not a great Worlds for the Shibs, and I don't argue with their placement (but again politics does have a lot to do with how they have been received this year).
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 03-30-2012 at 01:35 AM.

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by katia View Post
    btw at the beginning of the competition I noticed a pair from Azerbaijan, they had spectacular lifts, modern choreography and very interesting music.
    Shame on the judges for not rewarding Zlobina/Sitnikov at all in PCS (they were 16th in PCS). Most scandalous judging so far. I'm upset for the couple and for the sport of ice dancing because the judges just sent a loud signal that they don't care about originality.

    My other favorite program was Cappellini/Lanotte. The podium finishers were a bit meh for me.
    Last edited by cassiem; 03-30-2012 at 01:56 AM.

  7. #397
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    Congrats to the medalists! And to W&P for such a strong competition. I'm really happy for V&M. I think overall they won fair and square. We can agree to disagree on the margin in the FD, but many thought V&M could have had a bigger lead in the SD. V&M and D&W are just two very different teams and their fans value different aspects of ice dance and figure skating (and music). There's nothing wrong with that. And I don't get the grudge against Scott voicing his opinion, in particular at the GPF. I've not been around the boards much this season, but fans in general have always whined about skaters being too PC. Is it only okay if you agree with them? In any case, to my knowledge, the ISU admitted to an error at the GPF. Also using the no [insert country] judge/caller complaint is a slippery slope that always comes back to bite those that use it. I won't say that it's been never a factor, but it's often misused by fans simply disappointed with results without looking more deeply into each individual situation where that's occurred.

    Point is, in a competition of close rivals, it's going to always be a case of picking up the highest levels, the +GOE, every single little thing in order to win. On any given night, many might like one or the other's performance better, but it's the combined elements plus the performance that win under COP.

  8. #398
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    I'm really loving what's coming out of the Carmelengo and Krilova camp. I just want to say WOW, WOW, WOW to W/P. For me that was the performance of the competition. It was so emotional and beautiful skating. They won me over tonight. I know many will disagree, but...V/M were just boring. I just found this Funny Face....just funny, cheesy and uninspiring. I'm not sure how the judges scored that. Even V/M admitted they made some mistakes and were not perfect in some of their post interviews. lol They are one of the best of all time and capable of so much more and that was not it. That program will certainly not be one of their signature programs ala Mahler. P/B were held up being a veteran team on home ice. I don't see this team ever reaching the world podium again. W/P have already passed them up and the Italians are right there as well. D/W probably should of won gold today. They skated their hearts out and their FD is just a masterpiece. That will be a signature piece for them. I think getting such high scores during the season hurt them as the resulting complaints affected the judging. They were obviously disappointed but as always gracious. They won't be complaining about the results like others.
    Last edited by tampro1; 03-30-2012 at 02:59 AM.

  9. #399
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    ugh people, stop. we all love scott and tessa. they have an awesome chemistry together and their programs - my god, from valse triste to pink floyd to mahler - were awe-inspiring. we get it. i was even rooting for them during the vancouver olympics. but there's no way, no ******* way you could possibly argue they outskated meryl and charlie in Nice this year. they were fast, crisp, and their choreography was far better than anything we've seen in the last two years (i.e. did you notice how their lifts fit the music perfectly?). I've seen both programs multiple times on youtube this year and if anything commentators seem to agree with me. they were dazzled by the die fledermaus FD and underwhelmed by the funny face routine. So sure, go ahead, you can argue for as long as you want on how funny face was "ground-breaking" (which it clearly wasn't. mahler? yes. pink floyd? a BIG YES. funny face? not so much. i.e. Grishuk & Platov in 1994, in case you've forgotten, used an American rock song to win gold at the olympics) or technically superior to die fledermaus (now really?? -.- not to mention that tessa and scott weren't at their best), but meryl and charlie should've won the FD. or at the very least beaten the Canadians in Program Components score. if you're still not convinced, i dare you to look at the crowd reactions again and see for yourself which program stood out more for the audience.

  10. #400
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    Ah, IceCastles, but it's one thing to not be predictably PC in one's response, and quite another to complain as boorishly as Scott did, which smacks of bad sportsmanship. There is a way to be confident and voice some disappointment in your marks w/o in essence dismissing your closest competitors and looking peeved and childish. I like the way Meryl and Charlie respond, and I wouldn't call their responses PC. In fact, D/W are always gracious and sportsmanlike, while at the same time expressing confidence in their abilities w/o dismissing their competitors. D/W are competitive and confident without being arrogant.

    In fact, it may not be the same fans who have whined about PC responses who are upset about Scott's poor response after the GPF. I do believe that Scott was spoken to by his coaches re his post-GPF comments. They probably told Scott to channel his emotion into training hard with Tessa to make improvements to their free dance.

    Still very much a shame the way D/W were downgraded. They gave their utmost and have to feel great knowing they skated their fp wonderfully all season long, and especially at the World Championships. The marks they received in Nice remind me of how they were low-balled on their outstanding and innovative SD at the 2010 Olympics.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 03-30-2012 at 03:05 AM.

  11. #401
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    Art&Sport, I don't have an issue with people not liking Scott's responses (as long as they are consistent with all skaters in that respect across the board), but it really shouldn't factor in the analysis of this competition. It just seems to me that part of some people's anger over of V&M winning is their dislike of Scott. YMMV, of course.

    You bring up the 2010 Olympics OD, where the charge was leveled that V&M's OD was not as original and innovative as D&W and thus the latter should have won that portion. I disagreed then and I disagree now. D&W's Indian OD was delightful and an inspired choice with great choreography. But V&M's OD, while yes using the tried and true Flamenco, was full of difficult intricacies and hand-holds and close skating.

    And to clarify again, when I say that I think V&M won fair and square under COP, it's not an issue of audience response only because I'd say V&M also got the best audience reaction last year and still lost to D&W because of technical marks/levels, etc. Or even program comparisons only. Funny Face is not everyone's cup of tea and it's not my favorite FD from V&M though I appreciate the ambition and intention behind it. COP picks up the bits and pieces of a program as well as the overall effect. V&M and D&W were very close across the board on PCS. You've got X amount of judges giving X amount marks that are averaged. It may seem to skew slightly high or low given your preference, but V&M won the FD on levels in any case as Mrs. P pointed out in her post. That's COP.

  12. #402
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    Yes, we all know how COP works. -.- i was only drawing attention to audience response because meryl and charlie scored lower in Choreography, Interpretation/Timing and scored only as high as tessa and scott in Performance, when most everyone, including myself and the vast majority of the audience thought otherwise - judging by the crowd reaction, even the fact that their PCS's were very close seems very sketchy.

  13. #403
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    calstudent, my point was general audience reaction is not necessarily an indicator of what any of those values should be one way or another. And it's not like V&M got no or a poor audience reaction. They were well-received. But yes, I suppose conspiracy can be found if you want to find it.

  14. #404
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    Also, this is going way off on a tangent, but meryl and charlie's OD was far more original than tessa and scott's OD back 2010. Do I agree with the placement at the olympics? yes, because tessa and scott really delivered that program. but flamenco had been done before with much originality and flair (i.e. anissina and peizerat back in 2002?). to make their program even more difficult, meryl and charlie stayed true to the indian dance, which is extremely intricate and difficult to master with every movement down to a hand gesture having a meaning of its own.

  15. #405
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    -.- i'm in no way trying to find or formulate a "conspiracy theory". all i'm saying is meryl and charlie were undermarked. and yes, general audience cannot differentiate between a level four element from a level three or even a level two. but audience reaction does tell us how each team performed their program and the performance aspect of their routine, namely choreography, interpretation and performance marks, would normally reflect how it was received by most people.

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