03-30-2012, 06:00 AM
I don't know, while I think the judges take audience reaction into consideration, it's not at all the only determinate as far as those three marks are concerned. It's also each judges perception of the program as well. And since you and I have different perceptions of it, I think it's fair to say that the judges would also vary as well. And I'm not saying anyone's wrong to question results btw, but that I just find some of the complaints over-the-top in comparison to what happened on the ice and the scores.
03-30-2012, 06:15 AM
my point wasn't that the judges take audience reaction into consideration. if the vast majority of us (and this includes not only myself or the audience but commentators and many more) thought meryl and charlie performed better, why should the judges be any different? especially when in comes to the three PCS categories that we've already discussed (performance, choreography and interpretation)? also, i don't think the complaints were "over-the-top in comparison". if anything, i was the one who was personally attacked and framed as not being knowledgeable about the COP system or actively seeking out for a "conspiracy theory".
03-30-2012, 06:24 AM
I'm still not sold on vast majority. And in no way did I personally attack you. I am explaining why I think differently as opposed to the apparent majority. And I'm using something more definable (COP) to do it, not just my opinion. As to why should the judges be any different. Why shouldn't they? It's their job, not yours or mine. The audiences have frequently disagreed with/booed figure skating results. I think if we discussed all of those, you might not always agree with the audience.
03-30-2012, 06:45 AM
i mean... that's why i asked people to look back and see who got the biggest reception. and then tell me that you're still not sold on vast majority. gosh even tessa and scott admitted that it wasn't their best performance. and COP is only definable when it comes to technical calls (although even these can be arbitrary from time to time) and the other two PCS categories (skating skills and linking footwork). Like the artistic marks back in the 6.0 system, performance, choreography and interpretation marks derive from judge's subjective perception of the program. and yes, the audiences have booed in the past but a) it was unusual and b) often - not always but most times and this was more prevalent in the 6.0 mark system - rightly so because unlike judges, audience generally did not have preconceived opinions on specific skaters and would judge them based on how they actually performed. My point being, it's a slippery slope argument. just because there were few incidents in the past where judges disagreed with the audience on how well the skater(s) performed, does not mean that the judges are bound to be different. in fact, audience is usually content with the judges' marks.
03-30-2012, 07:08 AM
No, the judges are not bound to be different. But they can on occasion hold a different perception of a performance. Yes, Tessa and Scott said it wasn't their best. I just don't understand why it's so inconceivable that they won overall or even the FD, taking all parts of the system into consideration as well as the fact that the judges really do appreciate both V&M and D&W. And V&M were dinged on their minor mistake and D&W had problems with their levels. The reason I'm not sold on the vast majority is that the best way to know for sure who the audience thought should have one would be to poll each audience member. With COP, it's not perfect, but it's the system we're dealing with. The audience, the commentators, and us the fans we're not infallible either.
03-30-2012, 07:42 AM
but see, we weren't even discussing about the overall competition or even the FD. we took three PCS categories and discussed them. The problem that many people seem to have is that this season, tessa and scott's FD was underwhelming while meryl and charlie's FD was seen as an artistic triumph by many, not all but many, and commentators/reputable authority figures echoed this sentiment. Now, for all we care, tessa and scott won the championship and yes, we can take it as a plausible scenario under COP given the arbitrary calls on the levels of each element. What is harder to accept is that tessa and scott's underwhelming performance (and even they admitted so) of an underwhelming routine scored the same on performance and higher on choreography AND interpretation than meryl and charlie's passionate, near-impeccable performance of a masterpiece. It's not that difficult to extrapolate, then, that the judges may have been especially harsh on meryl and charlie overall when even their marks for their performance were lower than tessa and scott's. and again, it's fallacious to argue that you'd need to poll each audience member to understand how most people viewed these two performances. sure, it would be more precise but it wouldn't be more accurate. you could tell the noticeable difference in reception after they skated. anyway, i'm done with arguing. we can agree to disagree. i still don't see how tessa and scott could've scored higher than meryl and charlie especially in regards to their performance marks (given everything that i said already in this forum), but whatever. looks like you aren't going to change your mind anytime soon and it's honestly not worth the effort to try to convince people when it's 3:41 in the morning.
03-30-2012, 07:44 AM
leave no stone unturned
And Capelini Lanote maybe one of few reasons I watch ice dance lately, since Kerrs retired,I just love them!
03-30-2012, 07:55 AM
- * -
Hopefully Weaver and Poje never get bumped for Poirier and Gilles. W and P are clearly too good for that to happen.
Originally Posted by Simoncat
03-30-2012, 09:09 AM
1. Heh. Typos are funny (Audrey not Aubrey)
Originally Posted by Mrs. P
2. We can go back and forth on the nature of uberdom all day. I recall someone immediately after Skate Canada basically saying the only way V/M would win the FD was with politicking. For those of us who see D/W's improvement but aren't bowled over by it, the assumption is that we're "delusional V/M fans" who can't handle their main rivals getting better. It doesn't help that many D/W fans try to use Scott's comments to assert D/W's moral superiority as well (and by extension, the superiority of D/W fans over V/M fans).
3. I do question the margin of the FD victory. In context of the season and the skate, it's definitely puzzling.
03-30-2012, 09:50 AM
ImaginaryPogue: your assertions are your own perceptions/ interpretations, and in this case, since V/M won, your uber justification that D/W fans are "using Scott's comments to assert D/W's moral superiority." Who said anything about "moral superiority?" You are the first poster to characterize in this way the difference between D/W response in defeat to that of V/M, when in fact "moral superiority" actually has nothing to do with this discussion. And to top it off, no one lumped Tessa in with Scott's comments after GPF. Skaters and athletes in general have varying reactions to rivalries and close losses. I happen to prefer the way Meryl and Charlie respond over the way Scott responds, which has a lot to do with their different personalities. You also ignore where some D/W fans (including myself) acknowledge V/M's great talent. I knocked V/M fd theme/ choice of music, not the level of their skills. OTOH, many V/M ubers constantly knock and look down on Meryl and Charlie and their wonderful qualities.
If you think about it, the margin of the fd victory is not so "puzzling." It's all about fs politics, which has nothing to do with "conspiracies" another term some posters bandy about as a way to reprimand posters who bring up the ever-present fs politics. It's not about "conspiracies," it is about buzz within the sport, talk that filters between judges and coaches and feds and ISU officials. It is about influencing perceptions. Scott's outburst may not have been condoned by his coaches, but for sure the Canadian fed agrees with his assertion and likely ran with it behind the scenes in a less obstreperous manner to point out where they felt their team was not being fairly judged. Add to that the improvements V/M's coaches helped them make and the fact that V/M knew they had to up their ante against D/W (also Tessa getting stronger after her surgeries/ year off). Above all, the buzz that V/M are much superior and D/W over-marked, and don't forget no U.S. reps on the judging and tech panels -- and you get this questionable margin of victory in the fd for V/M.
03-30-2012, 10:26 AM
1.) Blah, typos! (It was 10 p.m. when I wrote the post!)
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
2.) I find the uber talk (on both sides) sort of puzzling. I find uber talk in general in this sport to be puzzling. I get people have favorites and fandom is a natural part of the sport, but it just seems that people take it so personally. and that people resort to broad platitudes rather than just discussing what's out there. The fact that we are discussing "moral superiority" of the teams and fans (in general, just using your term IP), illustrates that quite well.
I think it's more fun, personally, to discuss what happened on the ice; what it means for next season (I've enjoy your thoughts on that topic, IP), etc rather than go on-and-on why my favorite is superior to everybody else or try to put down the fans for their viewpoints. Also I think such discussion — whether you agree with the scores or not — can be done with an fair-minded view. And a bit of trash talking is fine — you see it in other sports all the time — but again you can do that without being personal too.
For example, since I've been religiously watching the NCAA (College Basketball) tournament: I don't particularly care for Kentucky — and they beat my alma mater in the first round! — and I'm more than willing to trash talk them as a "NBA Draft Farm" and absolutely hope they will be beat by Louisville on Saturday. But when they play a good game, I'm willing to acknowledge that. (I.e. you can't ignore them when they are like 90 percent or something on their free throws!)
And I find that even the more uber college basketball fan of a certain team are willing to acknowledge — with a bit(or a lot?) of a grumble, of course — the skills of the other team. And usually the trash talking is much more jovial.
Here, I find that some ubers just absolutely refuse to do that, as if doing so would reduce the skill and talent of their favorite. Again that applies to a lot of skaters here, not just D/W or V/M. And then on top of that, then we have that whole "delusional fan" thing which is silly. Let people be fans of who they want.
3.) I think my questioning of the margin at this point comes down to the +GOE on some elements, the level 3 step sequence and the PCS. I'll probably rewatch the dances again and give another evaluation, using Doris' handy reference tool. (Still miss you, Doris!)
03-30-2012, 11:18 AM
I think that the best Ice dancers won their title
Their last year very innovative, hystorical programme couldn't get its award, because they didn't compete all year long than and everybody wanted to catch the moment to win the first ever US Gold.
This year it was NOT any "Moment". The best one won.
03-30-2012, 11:27 AM
I am sad for Meryl & Charlie. I think they put everything out there last night and performed magnificently, only to be rewarded with almost their lowest marks of the season. And despite a full standing ovation. I understand about the technical levels in the step sequences. But I have a real issue with V/M's .85 margin in PCS. I really do not agree with that, nor did I agree with their PCS margin in the SD. I like Funny Face, but this performance wasn't their best. After the joy of D/W, the passion of W/P and I/K, the excitement of P/B, well, frankly, Funny Face felt a bit flat and seemed a little . . . trifling, and contrived. And once again, I felt an overreliance on cute/charming/romantic expression in the program.
It's rather ironic. This year, D/W skated one of their most celebrated free dances ever, almost universally acclaimed a masterpiece--yet they lost, and by a wide margin. Whereas last year, their free dance was not widely acclaimed nor considered a great match with their natural style, yet they won easily. It's a strange situation. Leaves you wondering what direction they should take next year.
I generally resist judging conspiracy theories, but I do feel there is something wrong with the way Davis/White were scored in this event. It feels like something's going on behind the scenes. Could TPTB really be that angry that the U.S. had two teams on the podium last season? Maybe so.
I'm sad for Maia & Alex too. What a disappointing event for them. I was shocked by the twizzle meltdown because of the way it completely stopped the program. It wasn't like P/B's fall last year, where they recovered quickly. Maia & Alex seemed stunned and I felt like they were on autopilot the rest of the dance. Hope they can come back from this. Yes, everyone makes mistakes, but that was a pretty huge one, and the 8th place finish resets them and puts them well back into the pack. I have to admit, I feel more worried now that their sibling relationship could be a problem going forward. Like the Duchesnays, I think they'll need to be very innovative to overcome the inherent limitations of that. They really played it safe with their programs this season, especially the FD, and I think they need a different approach next year and to get out of the retro box/comfort zone. Actually, I'd love to see them work with someone like Ingo Steuer.
I loved both Pechalat/Bourzat and Weaver/Poje. I really thought they were both great, just in such different ways. I would have been fine with either team winning the bronze. And I'm excited about the good performance and placement for Hubbell/Donohue. I guess those were the highlights of an event that otherwise left an odd taste in my mouth.
03-30-2012, 11:38 AM
As I said in other posts, I think while this competition (and 4CCs) didn't go their way this year, I see this year as very much a setback than a complete reset. I think they've been tinkering so much with the SD and the FD this year in an attempt to perform it better that it probably unraveled them a bit at these last few competitions. I got the sense that both of them really wanted to prove that their bronze was not a fluke and that the could compete with the best. I get the sense that psyched them both out a bit — more with Alex than Maia.
Originally Posted by eyria
I still think that despite the "safer" programs, they did make some progress this year, though it didn't necessarily lead to a World or 4CC medal. I think they really upped the difficulty of their programs and even though the SD remained their thorn on their side, I get the sense they did learn a lot about performing.
I'm not really worried about the sibling relationship. As lcd mention a few pages ago, Maia and Alex have a different kind of chemistry that could be translated in programs. There's this teasing, dry humor yet loyal sidekick dynamic to their sibling relationship that I think would work great in dance.
I think we saw flashes of that in their past programs -- in Cinema Paradiso, even last year's Smile program. And actually, you could see that they were working on that in this year's FD too, especially in the practice sessions with Corky. It just didn't show up yesterday after the twizzle meltdown.
I admit I'm a big fan, and I will probably support them regardless of what they do. But I truly believe they can and WILL come back strong next year.
03-30-2012, 12:06 PM
I'm a big fan also of Maia & Alex. I hope it didn't sound otherwise. I just love them--their speed, chemistry, wonderful unison, smoothness, and beautiful posture. Alex, in particular, is one of the best male ice dancers I've ever seen. The quality of his partnering is just so superb.