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Thread: Ice Dance - Free Dance

  1. #451
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by all that View Post
    The difference is that Hersh is paid to report about ice dancing and we are not.
    I would say it like this. Hersh is paid to sell newspapers. It is the job of a sportswriter to be outlandish, opinionated and acerbic. Nobody would read their columns otherwise.

    "I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right." Anything in the sports pages about skating is better than nothing in the sports pages about skating.

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by all that View Post
    The difference is that Hersh is paid to report about ice dancing and we are not. Do you get paid to do nothing at all, the way Hersh did with his FD article? Do you also get paid when you decide that you don't want to learn about some part of your job because it doesn't make sense to you? If you do, I want your job, just like I want Hersh's job.

    Hersh's attitude is particularly disgusting in this time of economic difficulty for the US and the World. So many hard workers are being laid off, and yet this guy is pulling a salary for doing nothing at all. He ought to be ashamed of himself, but of course, he thinks he's the greatest thing there is. Appalling.
    He does more than cover ice dancing. He is the Olympics reporter, which means he covers several sports including figure skating, skiing, track, on and on. Ice dancing is just part of what he writes about. In addition to writing Globetrotting, he also has to produce content for the print edition of the Chicago Tribune. And they're not all his opinion pieces. He also does straight news reports on Olympic sports as well.

    It's a sweet job, covering Olympics sports, but I can tell you it's not an easy job. And while he probably is living comfortably, he hardly pulling a huge salary. In the last five years, the owners of the Chicago Tribune, have made pay cut after pay cut and layoff after layoff. Hersh is lucky in the sense that he had enough seniority to not get laid off. But it's pretty clear to me he probably has to do a lot more work because like many other journalists, he has to do stuff for the website and newspaper that he didn't have to do 10 years ago and there's more work to go around because there's less staff.

    You can disagree with his views, but it's totally not cool to say he's paid to do nothing.

    ETA: Again, I rather no censure someone like Hersh, as crazy as he is, because quite frankly I wouldn't want someone to censor me. First Amendment, baby!
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-30-2012 at 03:35 PM.

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I would say it like this. Hersh is paid to sell newspapers. It is the job of a sportswriter to be outlandish, opinionated and acerbic. Nobody would read their columns otherwise.

    "I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right." Anything in the sports pages about skating is better than nothing in the sports pages about skating.
    people are resorting to ad hominem arguments... stop poisoning the well. -.-
    Last edited by calstudent; 03-30-2012 at 03:42 PM.

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    LOL. I'm still waiting for one of the experts here to tell me why Marlie got a level 3 on one of their step sequences cp'd to Voir's level 4. It was one of their costliest supposed weaknesses. So far I've heard Mrs P say they needed to be more precise. I'd like a more "precise" answer than that - where exactly were they less than precise?

    I have to say I'm leaning toward Hersh here. If the difference in levels is so invisible that after 28 pages none of the fabulous experts here has yet been able to identify it, then to hell with it.

    And when you have a rivalry like V/M & D/W, which is generally seen as a rivalry for the ages, both teams quite equal (how many times have I heard this here), and then the tech committee calling levels represents one team's country but not another, then yes, I think you can talk about national bias.

    Not so sure about the crowd reaction as the crowd would have given P/B the gold if they could have (and C/J the bronze! lol), but yes, it seemed to me that D/W were underscored on choreo, performance, and interpretation relative to V/M.
    It's not a national bias. It's a style bias, and the judges aren't the only ones who have: you can see it in comment after comment on this board as well.

  5. #455
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    ^ I agree that there's a style bias. I think the judges are making it clear that they prefer the more intimate romantic style of V/M over the virtuosity and stylistic range of D/W. Otherwise D/W would have scored above V/M in several PCS instead of below them.

    But there is also plenty of national bias to be seen on this board! It's pretty much a given in this sport. And I stick by what my concern about the makeup of the tech panel. I guess we'll have to disagree about that.

  6. #456
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    Plenty of national bias on this board, you say? Ah, yup. I'd think twice of going to parts of Canada without wearing my VIRTUE & MOIR RULE tshirt. In neon. That lit up. Whether it clashed with the rest of my outfit or not. LOL.

  7. #457
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Um, whatever.

  8. #458
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    Should have followed through on my first instinct to go to bed, but ohhhh nooo...Just had to come in to see what I've missed since last night and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Sure I could use the report poster thread; but I prefer just saying it to the general audience. That's just how I roll. I don't particularly enjoy reporting people unless they're being trolls. I believe in diplomatic gentle reminders, but that's me.

    I've heard that other boards are much nastier, yes, but that doesn't mean everyone should accept nastiness, even if it's it's less.
    And if you ever become an actual Moderator around here, then you can do just that. However you aren't and therefore instead of the constant lectures, use the report button. That's what it's for and won't clog up the board during it's busiest time of the year either.

    Also (not aimed directly at you Tigger, but just using your thoughts as a base):
    I get that some people can't warm up to D/W, but I can't agree that they're doomed or they aren't growing. If you just go an look at D/W from the 2006-2007 to now, you can see they have grown leaps and bounds. And they will continue to grow, because that's their MO.
    Not aimed at me, but obviously using my post? Okay... Where on earth did I say they were doomed? I don't believe I did. In danger of not even coming close to their potenial because of skating programs that don't suit them that much and in turn, not growing to the levels I and many others would love to see them reach, I *did* mean that.

    And Die Fideramus is a different program for D/W. It's not a HUGE departure for those two, but it's nothing like Samson and Delilah or Phantom of the Opera or even the Tango they did last year. And personally, I like their interpretation. I sort of see it as a more jovial, fun version. The music they took from the opera are from those fun and joyful scenes, so to me I think their interpretation works.
    That's great if you loved it. I'm happy you did. However, considering they still let their speed turn into frantic and jerky movements, which *did* happen this time in sections, how did that fit w/the music and/or theme? It's certainly not what I expect to see from a waltz. A waltz should be soft and smooth, not frantic and jerky no matter if it's supposed to be jovial or dead serious. I've seen both kinds of interpretations over the years, enjoy both, but none of them were as jerky or frantic as Meryl and Charlie were in their performance.

    There are people who have said the same thing about V/M (can't warm up or do not prefer their programs), but somehow those people are taken as "delusional D/W fans" who don't get the greatness of V/M. (not saying you're saying this Tigger, but I've seen that said quite a bit on these boards).
    Not in a direct manner from the reading of that up there.

    So you don't enjoy D/W and think V/M is better. That's fine. In fact, it's chocolate or strawberry as far as I'm concerned. In fact. I like both flavors.
    You obviously didn't read my post all that closely if you think I don't enjoy Meryl and Charlie at all. When they have the right package for how they skate, I love it. S&D, the Indian OD and last year's SD are prime examples of that. However, that seems to happen far less w/them than it does w/other teams and I don't only mean Tessa and Scott. As I said, they just don't pull off soft romantic styles at all well and that's not just me who has picked up on that. At this stage of the game, that should be realized and they be given something that not only works to their strengths but also allows that power, rawness and speed to shine as it should. It's the best part of their skating, yet it just never seems to be allowed to be showcased properly the majority of the time IMO.

    And now I'm off to bed as tomorrow's a jam packed and exciting day.

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post

    And if you ever become an actual Moderator around here, then you can do just that. However you aren't and therefore instead of the constant lectures, use the report button. That's what it's for and won't clog up the board during it's busiest time of the year either.
    If you are so bothered by my lectures, as you call it, there is an ignore button. Just because I'm not a moderator, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, "Hey let's be cool, guys." That's all I intended to do.

    I think those lectures made up 3-4 posts of 457 posts here. Hardly call that clogging up the board.

    And if you're so inclined — you also can report me. I understand. As you say, that's what it's there for...

    Not aimed at me, but obviously using my post? Okay... Where on earth did I say they were doomed? I don't believe I did. In danger of not even coming close to their potenial because of skating programs that don't suit them that much and in turn, not growing to the levels I and many others would love to see them reach, I *did* mean that.
    Your post got me thinking somethings beyond what you actually said. That happens sometimes. Stream of consciousnesses. Again, not aimed at you, just got me thinking. Really, I shouldn't have quoted you really. But in the interest of discussion, I wanted to acknowledge that i read your post and what thoughts came out of it.


    That's great if you loved it. I'm happy you did. However, considering they still let their speed turn into frantic and jerky movements, which *did* happen this time in sections, how did that fit w/the music and/or theme? It's certainly not what I expect to see from a waltz. A waltz should be soft and smooth, not frantic and jerky no matter if it's supposed to be jovial or dead serious. I've seen both kinds of interpretations over the years, enjoy both, but none of them were as jerky or frantic as Meryl and Charlie were in their performance.
    Well OK, it didn't meet your expectations and you didn't enjoy it. But there are plenty of people besides me that did. And if you look at the scores, the judges didn't seem to have huge problems given that they were tied with V/M in performance and was given several 10s there.

    Ultimately, Davis/White lost mostly because of a step sequence. As I've pointed out in numerous points, the step sequence (1.5 base value + .28 in +GOE) made up 66 percent of V/M's lead in the FD. And as I pointed out earlier D/W has not scored a level 4 in that element all season long and V/M have.

    Taking that out of the picture, the gap is .92, spread out numerous +GOE and 4 PCS elements. When you split it like that, it was really really close. But perhaps those details you mention did make the difference.


    You obviously didn't read my post all that closely if you think I don't enjoy Meryl and Charlie at all. When they have the right package for how they skate, I love it. S&D, the Indian OD and last year's SD are prime examples of that. However, that seems to happen far less w/them than it does w/other teams and I don't only mean Tessa and Scott. As I said, they just don't pull off soft romantic styles at all well and that's not just me who has picked up on that. At this stage of the game, that should be realized and they be given something that not only works to their strengths but also allows that power, rawness and speed to shine as it should. It's the best part of their skating, yet it just never seems to be allowed to be showcased properly the majority of the time IMO.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that comment at you....but again because I quoted your post, I understand why you thought so. (Note to self: Don't do that!)

    That said, some would argue that this FD really did capture their strength and power. And I would too. A waltz can be powerful and fast too. I did not see DF as a soft and romantic piece. Obviously you see it differently, and I'm OK with that.

  10. #460
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    i admit i did not read all the posts (many but not all) so let me just ask,
    did anyone else see missteps (not in step sequences) by Tessa and Scott? I think they were even shown in slow motion. That was what surprised me after seeing their marks and overall placement.

    I love both teams and find it amazing how they push each other and make this sport much more interesting.

    After watching 2 times the final group I find that D&W gave a cleaner performance and in deserved 1st place in free dance. I am looking forward reading more about step sequence points as some of you stress how they determinate the winner.

  11. #461
    Penny & Nick! La Rhumba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kosjenka View Post
    i admit i did not read all the posts (many but not all) so let me just ask,
    did anyone else see missteps (not in step sequences) by Tessa and Scott? I think they were even shown in slow motion. That was what surprised me after seeing their marks and overall placement.

    I love both teams and find it amazing how they push each other and make this sport much more interesting.

    After watching 2 times the final group I find that D&W gave a cleaner performance and in deserved 1st place in free dance. I am looking forward reading more about step sequence points as some of you stress how they determinate the winner.
    Has this article been posted here?
    http://ice-dance.com/component/conte...by-the-numbers

    Very good article on the technicalities, but I agree with you - no, one step sequence should not determine Gold. D&W's performance was more impressive on the night.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by La Rhumba View Post
    Has this article been posted here?
    http://ice-dance.com/component/conte...by-the-numbers

    Very good article on the technicalities, but I agree with you - no, one step sequence should not determine Gold. D&W's performance was more impressive on the night.
    Thanks for the info. Just wanted to chime in to say that the last 2 FDs for D/W have been choreographed intentionally to max out points and there was no complaints. V/M continuously tweaked their FD this year and ended up with the larger base value. We all knew coming into Worlds that this was going to be close and it was. But V/M in my opinion, did skate better in the SD and did win the FD - even "by one step sequence". So although V/M did win, it was not only due to their skating skills but also having a larger base value in their FD (which is D/W's ultimate game plan is to jam their FDs with elements). If D/W are not happy with the results - that's totally understandable.

  13. #463
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    I think the thing that most people forget here is that V/M and D/W have never actually been as close in scores and placements as one would think. With the exception of the 2009 GP Final, D/W have never actually finished ahead of V/M unless V/M were severely undertrained due to injury or made a super serious mistake (like at this season's GR Final). I'm not saying that D/W dont deserve to be right up there with them (which they do) or that they're incapable of beating them (which they most certainly are), I'm just pointing out that the gap between the two teams only narrowed when Tessa was hurt. The technical abilities of these teams are essentially identical, but V/M have always skated their elements with smoother edges and genereally cover the ice with better flow that D/W. They are also superior performers, and connect better (usually) with each other and the music. I realize that these aren't huge differences, but when two teams are this good, it's these little things that count. The judges have always rewarded V/M for these qualities (and rightfully so, IMO) over D/W, and I believe that happened here again, especially in the SD. And while D/W did perform better on the night from an artistic sense, it doesn't change the fact that their elemenets are not as refined as V/M's. V/M also got one level higher than D/W in the FD here, which essentially accounts for the entire points difference anyhow. I really don't see what all of the fuss is about.
    Last edited by skatingfan04; 04-01-2012 at 11:21 AM.

  14. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingfan04 View Post
    I think the thing that most people forget here is that V/M and D/W have never actually been as close in scores and placements as one would think. With the exception of the 2009 GP Final, D/W have never actually finished ahead of V/M unless V/M were severely undertrained due to injury or made a super serious mistake (like at this season's GR Final). I'm not saying that D/W dont deserve to be right up there with them (which they do) or that they're incapable of beating them (which they most certainly are), I'm just pointing out that the gap between the two teams only narrowed when Tessa was hurt. The technical abilities of these teams are essentially identical, but V/M have always skated their elements with smoother edges and genereally cover the ice with better flow that D/W. They are also superior performers, and connect better (usually) with each other and the music. I realize that these aren't huge differences, but when two teams are this good, it's these little things that count. The judges have always rewarded V/M for these qualities (and rightfully so, IMO) over D/W, and I believe that happened here again, especially in the SD. And while D/W did perform better on the night from an artistic sense, it doesn't change the fact that their elemenets are not as refined as V/M's. V/M also got one level higher than D/W in the FD here, which essentially accounts for the entire points difference anyhow. I really don't see what all of the fuss is about.
    Just curious, but where did this notion come from that V/M are better performers because they connect with "each other"? The argument could just as easily be made that D/W connect better with the audience. Which one makes the skating more difficult?

  15. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Just curious, but where did this notion come from that V/M are better performers because they connect with "each other"? The argument could just as easily be made that D/W connect better with the audience. Which one makes the skating more difficult?
    Ok, that's fair. I suppose it's just personal preference, but I always feel that dancers should connect with each other, and that it is through this connection that they should touch the audience. Look at W/P for instance, who clearly thrilled the audiences in Nice with their passion, but that passion was always directed at each other, not at the croud. Every time I see dancers playing to the audience but ignoring each other, it just seems a little fake to me. I think that chemistry between partners that seems authentic is something that's difficult to achieve, and that the teams who achieve it should be rewarded. I also think it's more difficult to skate when you have to focus on your technique as well as emoting with your partner, as opposed to performing to the audience yourself and not having to worry about making that connection. That being said, it's just my opinion, and a lot of people prefer skaters to play directly to the audience. I will say, though, that I think Tessa and Scott are better "actors" as well, and are better able to portray a story, for whatever that's worth.

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