04-01-2012, 11:52 AM
Like you, I also dont understand all the fuss, but I dont see things as you do. I love both teams and find them very close in abilities with different strengths.
Originally Posted by skatingfan04
Last year at Worlds, V&M lost because they did not skate clean. Tessa had injury and surgery, so they were not able to train and compete part of the season, but they are amazing athletes and maybe they were missing that one more performance in front of the judges, but what they showed in free dance was very very good. We dont know how would D&W do if one of them was injured and went through season like V&M and I am hoping we wont find out. The thing is - V&M lost because they did not have the best performance, while D&W had the best performance of the night and won.
Difference this season is that D&W had program that was more dancing than storytelling like V&M. So acting was more important part of V&M program.
My impression is that D&W had the performance of the evening, while V&M were tense and had 2 moments of insecurity which is generally unlike them. That is why I think they did not deserve to win free dance.
I hope Doris writes a report on this. I tend to understand things better when she brakes them down :D
04-01-2012, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by kosjenka
I don't understand the fuss either but I also think the result is really simple to understand. It basically came down to the diagonal step sequence where V/M got a level 4 and D/W got a level 3. Hence V/M got higher scores here, accounting for virtually all of the point difference. I gather D/W had gotten a level 3 on that sequence virtually all season long, so it shouldn't have been a big surprise. The PCS of the two teams was virtually identical, with a small advantage to V/M. All that means is that enough of the judges disagreed with your assessment of who had the better components on the evening to make the difference. It's also worth noting that V/M very deservedly won the SD.
As for last season, I liked V/M's program a lot more than D/W's, but I thought it was perfectly clear and perfectly fair that D/W won gold at worlds. V/M's program was still noticeably rough in places and just didn't have the competition miles on it that D/W's had from competing and improving it all season. I don't think there was anything remotely controversial about it.
I find the press articles, particularly those from some of the American press, do a disservice to the sport when the writers essentially stamp their feet and act like children over a result they didn't like (often spurred on by nationalistic bias), rather than trying to do anything to understand said result, or the technical aspects of the sport in general.
Let's face it, the general armchair fan most often can't tell the difference between a double and a triple during a live performance, let alone distinguish between different levels of footwork in dance. So they rely on the commentators etc. to inform them. This has been a real problem in the U.S. with the institution of COP where many of said commentators and even the federation were very late to the party in adopting the new system. Thus they just complained about the new system rather than trying to explain it to fans, so fans were really set adrift about what they were seeing.
But even before COP this was a problem. Everyone, of course, wants to support the athletes from their own country, but the Cold War really took things to a whole other level. It made for great storytelling, of course, but not necessarily for a great understanding of the sport. Suddenly the athletes competing against your guys and gals were "enemies" not just rivals. Never mind that the Russians often won because they had some of the best basic skating technique. I'm not suggesting that there weren't judging blocs and vote swapping, because I think enough has come out about that to prove that there certainly were some shady deals made. And in dance, of course, there was the frustrating issue of the traditional protocol, where skaters had to wait their turn to move up the ladder. But looking back now it is quite plain to see that at least some of the outrage over the years about results stemmed more from the general fan's lack of knowledge than from hinky behind-the-scenes doings. (See also why inflated nationals scoring isn't necessarily helpful.)
I guess I'm just responding in general to the notion that the ISU somehow needs to change the system to make it so that the results will automatically reflect what one particular live audience found most crowd-pleasing. I find that to be an appalling idea, since, as I noted earlier, the general fan is fairly ignorant of even the most visible elements that make figure skating an actual sport. The only thing most general fans can see is if the person fell or not. Put it this way, Ralph and Hill got a standing ovation for their tango FS. Should they be on the podium?
And now I've rambled enough.
04-01-2012, 12:50 PM
I live in Canada, and would happily wear a Davis & White T-shirt. I support them 100%
Originally Posted by WeakAnkles
04-01-2012, 03:57 PM
Many here have been making the argument that V/M have been beset by injury and that is the only reason why D/W have caught up due to always being healthy. I would remind those people that D/W's careers have not been injury free. Charlie broke his ankle in junior hockey which caused them to miss 2005 junior nationals and junior worlds after having had a very respectable JGP season while V/M won a junior world silver. After he recovered, they bounced back to perform just behind V/M (who'd been healthy by all accounts) most of the season. Then in their second season as seniors, Charlie started the season slowly due to being injured over the summer. It put them behind all season, causing them to play catch up while V/M were breaking out with Umbrellas of Cherbourg. Both teams have had injury challenges that have allowed the other team to shine in the spotlight. If people are going to mention one team's injury disadvantages, they should mention the other.
04-01-2012, 07:31 PM
Tripping on the Podium
1. You've never done anything to report you for.
Originally Posted by Mrs. P
2. When this board is at it's busiest, anything not related to the event at hand *is* clogging up the board.
3. I stand by what I've said, only a Moderator can tell us how to behave and if you can't come to terms w/how things can get on this board during the big events, then maybe it's not for you. I've seen worse, believe me.
And now I'm done.
04-01-2012, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by jcoates
It is also irrelevant and hypocritical to bring up in the first place. After all would Virtue & Moir have ever won silver at the 2008 Worlds had Dominina & Shabalin been able to compete, which fasttracked their career bigtime. Would they have won gold in Vancouver if Domnina & Shabalin and Delobel & Schoenfelder remained healthy the previous 15 months. Injuries are part of sport. Davis & White deserved all their success and victories over Virtue & Moir, people need to remember they beat Virtue & Moir atleast once each of the last 4 seasons, including defeating them at the 09-2010 Grand Prix final in Virtue & Moir's most peak and dominant year ever. That said I still think Virtue & Moir overall are better and am glad to see them back on top.
04-01-2012, 07:48 PM
they weren`t at their absolute peak yet at gpf 2009 even Marina said it in a newspaper article they were missing some mileage at the start of that year, D&W really came out like gangbusters that year.
04-01-2012, 08:26 PM
Don't get me wrong, because I really love Voir's skating and think we're damn lucky to live in a time where we get to enjoy all the benefits of a lively rivalry, but alas 100% support for a team on here can often descend into a near-total intolerance for anything except uber-fandom. How many people on here have said, Yes, I think V/M should have won the competition, but D/W should have won the long, only to be berated for expressing that opinion. It's very off-putting.
Originally Posted by Sea Shells
04-01-2012, 08:35 PM
The only opinions you can express on Golden Skate without fear of being berated involves Kurt Browning and Michelle Kwan. They must be positive.
04-01-2012, 08:47 PM
04-02-2012, 11:44 AM
I was at the competition. To me, D/W looked like they were chasing after the gold. V/M, on the other hand, simply danced.
Originally Posted by skatingfan04
04-02-2012, 12:33 PM
It is fair to say, though, that of the teams in the bottom half, R/H were the most memorable. Compared to the Chinese team that also did a tango, R/H's was not only clean technically but also engaging artistically.
Originally Posted by rain
04-02-2012, 01:25 PM
are you kidding? try being me! LOL (though I will maim anyone who dares talk ill of my Kurt... MK you can have a field day on, but prepare to deal with Mathman.... and just about everyone but me on here lol)
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
04-02-2012, 02:32 PM
On the Ice
I'm not sure if anyone outside of Canada saw or heard about any of the interviews CBC showed with Virtue and Moir. They said that after the GPF Scott in particular had a "moment" where he was too focussed on their marks and on winning. I think most of us know what he's referring to They said that after that they did some soul searching and re-focussed on skating for themselves and for each other. I think you can totally see it. Their performances from Nationals onwards have been worlds away from what they were doing in the fall.
Originally Posted by isabella duncan
While I'm posting, I was wondering if maybe Davis and White were hurt by going up so early in the flight. With 3 (4? 3? I forget) other teams in between the judges couldn't easily compare the two performances directly. I don't know if this happens in skating, but in gymnastics it's generally understood that later performances score better.
04-02-2012, 03:26 PM
it definitely did in the 6.0 system, and I think it still happens with the IJS.
Originally Posted by mmcdermott