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Thread: The state of U.S. Figure Skating

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    The state of U.S. Figure Skating

    Let's consider:

    In Ice Dance still had three spots despite a mini-meltdown from the Shibs. Not only that all three teams managed to finished in the top 10. Top two finished 2nd and 8th. (10)
    In Pairs, our American teams are in 7th and 10th place after the SP. (17)
    In Men, our skaters are in 9th and 10th (19)
    In Ladies, our skaters are in 8th and 16th (24)

    Let's discuss. Thoughts?

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    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Let's consider:

    In Ice Dance still had three spots despite a mini-meltdown from the Shibs. Not only that all three teams managed to finished in the top 10. Top two finished 2nd and 8th. (10)
    In Pairs, our American teams are in 7th and 10th place after the SP. (17)
    In Men, our skaters are in 9th and 10th (19)
    In Ladies, our skaters are in 8th and 16th (24)

    Let's discuss. Thoughts?
    I think for the first time in a while our pairs teams might be on the right track if they would actually stay together for a few seasons without breaking up left and right. 3 spots can't happen this year but next it might be doable if M/B continue to progress at this rate and D/C can gain some more polish.

    As for ladies, I am meh. Everyone is gong to moan and groan about how Czisny blew it and we don't have 3 spots but what would we do with them? Have Agnes there as well, probably with a placement comparable to Alissa's??? Let's be real. At this time we don't need 3 spots and we are proving it year after year. Now, with Gold's entrance into Seniors next year that might change, but that's next year. For now I think everyone should chill and accept that 2 spots is all we need- if we even need that.

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    I can't think straight about this right now. I'm still recuperating.

    Maybe things will look better after the long program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I think for the first time in a while our pairs teams might be on the right track if they would actually stay together for a few seasons without breaking up left and right. 3 spots can't happen this year but next it might be doable if M/B continue to progress at this rate and D/C can gain some more polish.

    As for ladies, I am meh. Everyone is gong to moan and groan about how Czisny blew it and we don't have 3 spots but what would we do with them? Have Agnes there as well, probably with a placement comparable to Alissa's??? Let's be real. At this time we don't need 3 spots and we are proving it year after year. Now, with Gold's entrance into Seniors next year that might change, but that's next year. For now I think everyone should chill and accept that 2 spots is all we need- if we even need that.
    um, i can understand your wish to exonerate your darling, who by merely finishing below 13 can completely obliterate any achievement by the re-invigorated ashley wagner--wagner, who can at least acknowledge the responsibility of world representatives to win spots for at least themselves the next year. but really, who are you to decide what the U.S. needs? what qualifies you? let's ask agnes' parents and caroline's parents how they feel about this statement. let's ask leah keiser's parents, heck, let's ask the other U.S. ladies.

    as if the USFSA's coddling and holding up of czisny hasn't already bamboozled with them and their children's efforts enough.

    i contend that as many skaters as possible from the U.S. should be given the opportunity to shine on the world stage and with this bucket of bull judging the USFSA has already wasted 1 world spot this year and also the other year czisny went to worlds. and if she is in fact skating injured, i hope she is eviscerated online just like rachael flatt was.


    Edited to remove a term... forgot i was posting on the pastoral alternative to FSU
    Last edited by skfan; 03-30-2012 at 12:26 PM.

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    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    um, i can understand your wish to exonerate your darling, who by merely finishing below 13 can completely obliterate any achievement by the re-invigorated ashley wagner--wagner, who can at least acknowledge the responsibility of world representatives to win spots for at least themselves the next year. but really, who are you to decide what the U.S. needs? what qualifies you? let's ask agnes' parents and caroline's parents how they feel about this statement. let's ask leah keiser's parents, heck, let's ask the other U.S. ladies.

    as if the USFSA's coddling and holding up of czisny hasn't already bamboozled with them and their children's efforts enough.

    i contend that as many skaters as possible from the U.S. should be given the opportunity to shine on the world stage and with this bucket of bull judging the USFSA has already wasted 1 world spot this year and also the other year czisny went to worlds. and if she is in fact skating injured, i hope she is eviscerated online just like rachael flatt was.

    Edited to remove a term... forgot i was posting on the pastoral alternative to FSU
    I like Czisny; she's not my darling though (that title belongs to Mirai ) and I didn't join in any bashing of Flatt or others in previous years when they lost spots and wou;dn't join in baskhing of Ashley now if the situation were reversed and she was in Czisny's position.

    As for the rest, obviously in an ideal world as many skaters from as many nations as possible would be allowed to shine on the world stage. I wish Canada had 2 spots now so that Cynthia could be there too; I wish france had two spots so that both skaters they sent to Euros could have gone.

    As for what qualifies ME to make these decisions, nothing does. the rules are clear and apply to all countries equally. Your combined placement must be below or at 13 if there are 2 of you; below 10 if there is just one skater. The US ladies have shown themselves unable to do it. That has nothing to do with me. I would like if we had three spots but we don't need them under the current rules. You are entitled to disagree but personally attacking me is rather a waste of time.

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    Hopefully Gracie Gold and Josh Farris can save US figure skating in the upcoming years. I don't know why they weren't considered for the World team this season, honestly, after those big scores at JW? Further, Zhang beat Zawadzki and medalled at 4CC and the same happened for Miner regarding Rippon. Then Jeremy and Alissa both bombed Challenge Cup.

    A test skate should have been held to decide who goes to Worlds, invite Abbott, Rippon, Miner, Farris, and throw Mahbanoozadeh in there too to see if his good nationals were a fluke or not, for the men, and then Czisny, Zawadzki, Zhang, and Gold for the ladies. Whichever 2 skate the best at the test skate (held close to Worlds) get sent to Worlds, simple as that. After what went down at 4CC, JW, and Challenge Cup, this really should have been considered. I'm not even surprised at what happened because Jeremy and Alissa have always been headcases and were both a mess at Challenge Cup a few weeks ago, and Adam just does not have a consistent 3a, period. I know a team of Wagner and Gold/Zhang and Miner and Farris would likely not get 3 spots either, but at least these skaters are younger and can actually jump and compete and have potential to do very well in the future. It's just very frustrating.

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    Thank you for editing! I understand all kinds of strong emotions at this point, but I appreciate your self-restraint nonetheless.

    I still have fingers crossed for the ladies and men. You never know.

    I know that because the U.S. doesn't subsidize skaters, it's really hard to attract kids to this expensive sport, and there's little incentive for individuals to remain in competition, let alone pairs. It can't be that we have a smaller talent pool than, say, Canada or even Japan. (Population-wise, we do have an automatically smaller pool than Russia.) We clearly have wonderful athletes in this country, of all sizes and shapes. What is it we need to do to attract kids with the right combination of strength, grace, and drive to skating? When they show up, what is it we need to do to keep them there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Thank you for editing! I understand all kinds of strong emotions at this point, but I appreciate your self-restraint nonetheless.

    I still have fingers crossed for the ladies and men. You never know.

    I know that because the U.S. doesn't subsidize skaters, it's really hard to attract kids to this expensive sport, and there's little incentive for individuals to remain in competition, let alone pairs. It can't be that we have a smaller talent pool than, say, Canada or even Japan. (Population-wise, we do have an automatically smaller pool than Russia.) We clearly have wonderful athletes in this country, of all sizes and shapes. What is it we need to do to attract kids with the right combination of strength, grace, and drive to skating? When they show up, what is it we need to do to keep them there?
    how about rewarding their efforts with fair judging, instead of judging by tea leaves reading to 'pre-determine how worlds judges would rank'? how about judging what's on the ice fairly, without all the usual political crap? it may not be enough sans knee-whack, but it would be an encouraging start.

    ETA: re silverlake's post. a skate off isn't necessary. nationals was supposed to be that skate off--1 judging panel, everyone competing against the same slate of competitors. is fair judging at nationals a thing of the past? and i don't want gracie gold sent to senior worlds if she didn't compete against the other ladies who COMPETED for that honor. competing against ashley cain, mariah bell (however much i love her), polina edmunds and company is not the same as competing against mirai nagasu, 4th place finisher at olympics, or a much improved ashley wagner.
    Last edited by skfan; 03-30-2012 at 12:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    A test skate should have been held to decide who goes to Worlds...
    Well, we could think of U.S. Nationals as that test skate.

    The trouble with having another test skate to verify the results of Nationals, is that then we might need another test skate to make sure the results of the test skate were sound. What if a skater did well at Nationals but badly at the test skate, or vice versa? Which would be the better indicator of success at Worlds?

    I like the cleanness of the current criterion. Hold a big contest, come one come all, to determine who are the best skaters in America. Send the best skaters in America to Worlds. Then cross your fingers and hope for the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    how about rewarding their efforts with fair judging, instead of judging by tea leaves reading to 'pre-determine how worlds judges would rank'? how about judging what's on the ice fairly, without all the usual political crap?
    Well, everyone wants that.

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    I love Gracie to pieces, she's a great kid with a great head on her shoulders who just so happens to have gotten the right combination of talent, work ethic and coaching team to get big technical elements and consistency, but she in no way belonged at Senior Worlds this year (and I am glad Pat St. Peters and company found enough worthy from the Senior Ladies event to put that thought to rest in some ways). She has NEVER skated a Senior length FS program. She is in the process of putting together a Senior program for her USFS Senior FS test, but hasn't passed it --- yet. To insinuate that you want to put that kind of pressure (Senior Worlds with no Senior experience whatsoever) on her and expect her to shoulder the burden is ridiculous. You can't expect her (and Josh Farris) to "save" US Figure Skating. FWIW, Farris was 16th in Senior Men at Nationals. There'd be a HUGE outcry if Adam R got passed over (and everyone from 3rd to 15th) for the 16th ranked skater. Where's the fairness of that?

    Nationals IS a test skate. Perhaps 4C should have a test skate (the way there used to be a Junior Worlds Selection Competition when JWs was really early in the season) in December and then Nationals can be between 4C and Worlds so you can pick the "freshest" skaters to go to Worlds (but then you'd have skater who peaks at Nationals and can't get back "up" for Worlds...) No matter what, you won't win and something will happen...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, we could think of U.S. Nationals as that test skate.

    The trouble with having another test skate to verify the results of Nationals, is that then we might need another test skate to make sure the results of the test skate were sound. What if a skater did well at Nationals but badly at the test skate, or vice versa? Which would be the better indicator of success at Worlds?

    I like the cleanness of the current criterion. Hold a big contest, come one come all, to determine who are the best skaters in America. Send the best skaters in America to Worlds. Then cross your fingers and hope for the best.



    Well, everyone wants that.
    Yes but Nationals was too far in advance of Worlds and then you had a situation that made it clear Jeremy and Alissa were not in good form, then at 4CCs we see the pewter medalist overtake the bronze medalist from Nationals in ladies, and the bronze medalist overtake the silver medalist from Nationals in mens, then at JW we see two US skaters win silver medals in really deep fields with really impressive scores. Idk, things got mixed up and it's obvious Jeremy and Alissa were having problems.

    Also when you have the no-name 16th place finisher at Nationals post a higher score than the silver medalist's SB at JUNIOR worlds, that tells you something about how fair the nationals judging is. I mean, I get Josh tanked at Nats, but even so, the fact that he's a no-name junior skater and edged Rippon on the season's best list at a junior competition is evidence that the national judges had no business handing Rippon scores of 82+ and 157+ for the programs he put out at Nationals.

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    I'm just saying...if the problem is that the judges are not judging fairly, that they play politicks, hold up their favorites, etc., then I do not see why they wouldn't do the same at a test skate.

    If the problem is that all of our skaters are inconsistent, good one time, bad the next, with no one really rising to the challenge, then again, what would a test skate show that we didn't already know?

    No matter what we do, there has to come a time when we say, for better or for worse, we've got to go with what we've got.
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-30-2012 at 01:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    how about rewarding their efforts with fair judging, instead of judging by tea leaves reading to 'pre-determine how worlds judges would rank'? how about judging what's on the ice fairly, without all the usual political crap? it may not be enough sans knee-whack, but it would be an encouraging start.

    ETA: re silverlake's post. a skate off isn't necessary. nationals was supposed to be that skate off--1 judging panel, everyone competing against the same slate of competitors. is fair judging at nationals a thing of the past?
    Who's to say the judging at Nationals wasn't fair? Ashley Wagner and Jeremy Abbott were clearly the classes of the field in Seniors this year. Not to be politically insensitve, but a blind guy with a wooden eye could see that! Second was kind of a crap shoot in general this year for both as for ladies, each of Czsiny, Zhang, and Zawadzki could make a claim to that second spot because each of them had + and - in their skating and for men Rippon, Miner, and Mahbanoozedeh could all make a claim for that second as again each had + and - in their skating; sometimes the results come out in an unexpected manner via what gets rewarded in the judging system and how it gets rewarded.

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    ^ Yes, I agree. People complain that Czisny was held up at Nationals, but the fact is that no one was any better.

    And she has had an inconsistent year. Who hasn't?

    Now everyone is saying, see? I told told you she was going to mess up at worlds. Well, yeah, she did.

    Go Alissa! Rock the LP!
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-30-2012 at 02:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Who's to say the judging at Nationals wasn't fair? Ashley Wagner and Jeremy Abbott were clearly the classes of the field in Seniors this year. Not to be politically insensitve, but a blind guy with a wooden eye could see that! Second was kind of a crap shoot in general this year for both as for ladies, each of Czsiny, Zhang, and Zawadzki could make a claim to that second spot because each of them had + and - in their skating and for men Rippon, Miner, and Mahbanoozedeh could all make a claim for that second as again each had + and - in their skating; sometimes the results come out in an unexpected manner via what gets rewarded in the judging system and how it gets rewarded.

    i say it wasn't fair. czisny did not deserve 2nd. i have plenty of problems with a skating judging system that gives partial credit, but even by this system it wasn't fair. and nobody expects it to be fair, either--they all know the game. while i'm no mind reader, it appears to me that caroline and her coaches were surprised she managed to outscore mirai's SP.

    and to mathman's comment, it clearly isn't the case that 'everyone' wants fair judging at nationals. the people with the power to make it fair have chosen not to make it so for a number of years now.

    whatever. i try to refrain from spitting into the wind, as they say. i only speak up in this thread because i read an opinion (tulosai's) that so blatantly disregards every other US lady outside of czisny--disregards their present *and* future.
    Last edited by skfan; 03-30-2012 at 01:48 PM.

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