The state of U.S. Figure Skating | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The state of U.S. Figure Skating

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Figure skating has always been an expensive sport. Yet for 50 years, the United States always had someone in medal contention in two disciplines. So why is it so bad now? I'm sure someone has an opinion!

My multiple choice suggestions:
A. It has something to do with economics. Either costs skyrocketed suddenly, other countries started subsidizing their skaters more.

B. The popularity shot up in other countries all of a sudden in the mid 00's, giving the skaters a lot of commercials and endorsements to earn money with. (Japan?) So the US skaters can't buy ice team or whatever else they need.

C. There is just a vacuum after a very good skater dominates for years. So, we're just in the post-Sasha vacuum and post Evan vacuum. However, I don't remember a post-Kristi vacuum or a post-Nancy vacuum, so I don't know if I buy this.

D. It has something to do with the new judging system and age requirements. Either there are so many requirements that promising people are being injured, or they are losing their jumps before they get to the age where they look sophisticated enough to get enough PCS points. We'll see what happens with Gracie and the Russian girls.

E. I hate to say this, but it has something to do with anonymous judging. Anti-American (or anti-any country) judges can chip away at subjective criteria like skating skills and choreography, and never get called on it. This wouldn't account for meltdowns, though, or Davis and White's success.

F. It's just a run of bad luck, with competitors who flamed out and didn't live up to their potential, and it will end soon. I'm not sure I believe this either.

G. The worst case scenario: figure skating is over in America. Once the US dominated in diving (or was in contention), synchronized swimming, and tennis. Now, no more. Sports do fade away from countries and I hope that's not what we're seeing here. But I'm not sure I believe that it isn't.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
As awful as Alissa was who else would you send to Worlds? Agnes can't seem to skate a clean LP and isn't there yet Mirai has been uninspiring to say the least and is unreliable and Caroline still has to many weakness to challenge the top Ladies. That leaves Alissa. Finding one american lady who is consistent is becoming almost impossible let alone two. Which makes what the US Ladies have accomplished having in the past having 3 spots year after year more impressive. It also seems like the US coaches haven't been teaching these girls the proper jump technique either and they were not prepared for COP which demands more then simply being pretty or graceful. Gracie might be what the US needs since she's a powerhouse jumper with great technique.
 
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emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
I'm 100% for nationals being THE test skate (MM has said it best already so I won't repeat why). And, I really disagree that nationals was too 'early' or too 'way before' worlds ....the skaters plan their season knowing when they have to do what to then do the next thing...

And, I don't think Alissa was held up this year, i just think she didn't skate great...it's really a darn shame that she also tanked her SP at worlds; I'm hoping she nails the LP. If she doesn't, oh well. And I don't think that someone doing poorly anymore than someone doing extremely well should be the basis of how we decide rules like how we decide the world team. And to bring Jeremy in, he nailed nationals yet flubbed his short using the non-quad lay out that he should have nailed; yet what 'test skate' would have shown us that; he has at times excelled at GPs, he has more than once 'killed' nationals...what would be the test (past worlds?? that seems really unfair to me).
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Not going to read & wade through all the lamenting, but will instead address the topic. And that is I'm hopeful for American skating. :)

Seriously, there's GG coming up next year, a rejuvenated Caroline Zhang doing the only 3R/3R combo. in the world!, titans Denney & Coughlin, hopefully some rejuvenated & inspired brand new skaters that have improved leaps & bounds and want to be on that Olympic Team as well as the World Team before the Olympics, and last but not least there is Evan Lysacek. All my hopes lie with him when it comes to the American Mens skating...

As Scarlett O'Hara so famously said, "tomorrow is another day". :love:
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Figure skating has always been an expensive sport. Yet for 50 years, the United States always had someone in medal contention in two disciplines. So why is it so bad now? I'm sure someone has an opinion!

My multiple choice suggestions:
A. It has something to do with economics. Either costs skyrocketed suddenly, other countries started subsidizing their skaters more.

B. The popularity shot up in other countries all of a sudden in the mid 00's, giving the skaters a lot of commercials and endorsements to earn money with. (Japan?) So the US skaters can't buy ice team or whatever else they need.

C. There is just a vacuum after a very good skater dominates for years. So, we're just in the post-Sasha vacuum and post Evan vacuum. However, I don't remember a post-Kristi vacuum or a post-Nancy vacuum, so I don't know if I buy this.

D. It has something to do with the new judging system and age requirements. Either there are so many requirements that promising people are being injured, or they are losing their jumps before they get to the age where they look sophisticated enough to get enough PCS points. We'll see what happens with Gracie and the Russian girls.

E. I hate to say this, but it has something to do with anonymous judging. Anti-American (or anti-any country) judges can chip away at subjective criteria like skating skills and choreography, and never get called on it. This wouldn't account for meltdowns, though, or Davis and White's success.

F. It's just a run of bad luck, with competitors who flamed out and didn't live up to their potential, and it will end soon. I'm not sure I believe this either.

G. The worst case scenario: figure skating is over in America. Once the US dominated in diving (or was in contention), synchronized swimming, and tennis. Now, no more. Sports do fade away from countries and I hope that's not what we're seeing here. But I'm not sure I believe that it isn't.

I vote for a combination of B, C, D, and F.

I don't remember a post-Kristi vacuum or a post-Nancy vacuum

Have you blanked out the splatfest that was the ladies event at 1993 Nationals, which Kerrigan won with three triples (still, cleaner than the four that she managed at Worlds that year)?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ I don't completely understand (b). If skaters in Japan make a lot of money off commercials, how does that prevent U.S. skaters from buying what they need?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I can't speak for Poodlepal, but I don't think it's about the money or the ice time. Rather, skaters in Japan have more media attention and performance opportunities, which may include money as well, so they're more formidable opponents to the US skaters than was the case 20 years ago. (Ito was, and then Sato, but they didn't have more top skaters than the US for another whole skating generation).

Yes, ice time is expensive, but I don't think that is a new problem in the US. I do think but don't know for sure that there has been some mitigation of the problem of finding ice time for figure skating in Japan through building of new rinks.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Thank you for editing! I understand all kinds of strong emotions at this point, but I appreciate your self-restraint nonetheless.

I still have fingers crossed for the ladies and men. You never know.

I know that because the U.S. doesn't subsidize skaters, it's really hard to attract kids to this expensive sport, and there's little incentive for individuals to remain in competition, let alone pairs. It can't be that we have a smaller talent pool than, say, Canada or even Japan. (Population-wise, we do have an automatically smaller pool than Russia.) We clearly have wonderful athletes in this country, of all sizes and shapes. What is it we need to do to attract kids with the right combination of strength, grace, and drive to skating? When they show up, what is it we need to do to keep them there?

Money, Olympia, you know there is talent everywhere but no money for training. It will clearly shrink back to maybe fewer events for elites as economies worsen. It is an Olympic sport for the gifted -gifted with mega sacrificial (Asian disproportionately now in NA) parents or kids with rich parents.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
There's a French term, faute de mieux. It means roughly "for lack of a better one." This year, I fear that Alissa was faute de mieux.

'fraid I have to agree.

As awful as Alissa was who else would you send to Worlds? Agnes can't seem to skate a clean LP and isn't there yet Mirai has been uninspiring to say the least and is unreliable and Caroline still has to many weakness to challenge the top Ladies. That leaves Alissa. Finding one american lady who is consistent is becoming almost impossible let alone two. Which makes what the US Ladies have accomplished having in the past having 3 spots year after year more impressive.

this is what I keep saying- yes, Czisny is terrible but the alternates really weren't any better. I pointed out that Zawadzki's freaking SEASON BEST score was only a few points above Czisny's Challenge Cup "splatfest". Is she who you guys REALLY wanted to send to worlds in place of Czisny?? After all, she was alternate #1. So if Czisny was kicked off or WD, that's who would have gone in her place.

Zhang may have had a strong 4CC but there is a huge key point here that I think people are missing: there was no pressure. This is someone working her way up from the bottom with absolutely nothing to lose. The X-Factor would kick in in a BIG way if you then sent her to worlds to deal with the pressure of regaining 3 spots and putting US ladies skating back on the map. That's a LOT to ask of someone on the upswing who was planning on peaking in January as opposed to March. Look what happened to Wagner- solid skate at 4CC, then pressure got to her in Worlds SP.

I suppose there's really no need to mention Nagasu as we know where she stands. Bombed a superb chance in 2010, deals HORRIBLY with pressure ESPECIALLY when she is in leader position. (She's typically better when she has to come from behind.)

So, I ask again: who would you have sent in place of Czisny? No one was any better- I'm afraid it was basically "pick the best of the worst" this time around...
 
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sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
'fraid I have to agree.



this is what I keep saying- yes, Czisny is terrible but the alternates really weren't any better. I pointed out that Zawadzki's freaking SEASON BEST score was only a few points above Czisny's Challenge Cup "splatfest". Is she who you guys REALLY wanted to send to worlds in place of Czisny?? After all, she was alternate #1. So if Czisny was kicked off or WD, that's who would have gone in her place.

Zhang may have had a strong 4CC but there is a huge key point here that I think people are missing: there was no pressure. This is someone working her way up from the bottom with absolutely nothing to lose. The X-Factor would kick in in a BIG way if you then sent her to worlds to deal with the pressure of regaining 3 spots and putting US ladies skating back on the map. That's a LOT to ask of someone on the upswing who was planning on peaking in January as opposed to March. Look what happened to Wagner- solid skate at 4CC, then pressure got to her in Worlds SP.

I suppose there's really no need to mention Nagasu as we know where she stands. Bombed a superb chance in 2010, deals HORRIBLY with pressure ESPECIALLY when she is in leader position. (She's typically better when she has to come from behind.)

So, I ask again: who would you have sent in place of Czisny? No one was any better- I'm afraid it was basically "pick the best of the worst" this time around...

agreed, people spit on vile venom on Czisny when even her alternates are even worst
had Zawadzki competed instead of Czisny , even with minor mistakes, she'll score in the mid 140's and the USA could be down to 1 spot :eek:hwell:
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I can't speak for Poodlepal, but I don't think it's about the money or the ice time. Rather, skaters in Japan have more media attention and performance opportunities, which may include money as well, so they're more formidable opponents to the US skaters than was the case 20 years ago. (Ito was, and then Sato, but they didn't have more top skaters than the US for another whole skating generation).

Yeah, that's what I meant. If the Japanese skaters are getting more money from endorsements, etc. they have more to spend on training, better costumes, choreography, etc. There would also be more kids wanting to sign up for lessons, because they'd see a lot of skating on tv.

As for the post-Kristi vacuum--it was awful, but it lasted only 1 year. The next year Nancy won the silver medal (and to some, should've won gold) at the Olympics. The post-Nancy vacuum left us with Nicole Bobek winning a bronze, then the Michelle/Sarah/Sasha/Tara/Kimmie golden era. Since Kimmie's downfall, there has not even been as much as a bronze medal in 7 years. That's some vacuum!
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
I've changed my mind, I no longer have hope for the Americans, especially after today.

May they ALL go down in flames, including the USFSA, the most pathetic ragtag group of American skaters I've ever seen in my life. Disgusting. :disagree: :disapp: :mad:

To h(double LL) with them all. I've had to witness this caca for the past two years upon my return for Zhenya, and him only. It's just too bad that in the process I've had to see the Americans. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck. :no:


ps: they make me disgusted to be an American. And that's the truth.
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
ps: they make me disgusted to be an American. And that's the truth.

Seriously?? Why are you taking this so personally? It's only a sporting event, which in the Grand Scheme of What's Important in the World, doesn't amount to all that much. I think you need to get a grip....
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
They represent my country, America, and therefore they represent me, an American.

And as an American I'm stating how I feel. If you have a problem with that feel free to PM me and we will discuss. :cool:
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I think of lot of parents are reluctant to put their children into figure skating these days. In the past, there were fewer sporting opportunities for girls and skating was one sport where they were welcomed and treated well. But the emphasis on super young girls doing big triple jumps after the demise of figures, many of whom left the sport due to injuries, gave the impression that figure skating was eating up young girls and spitting them out. A lot of adults looked at skaters like Oksanna Bauill and Tara Lipinski both of whom "retired" at age 15 and said "This is no way to raise a child" and I would have to agree with them.

Back to back judging scandals at the Olympics further discouraged parents from putting their hard earned money into a sport where the results were "fixed" from the beginning. Now there are lots of sports which welcome girls and hence, lots of other options for kids who want to compete. The money is better spent on sports where the kids can have fun, as opposed to being subjected to unreasonable amounts of pressure, and where their child has a fair chance to win.

Every time someone insists that politics play a role in the judging, even though others say that the results are resonable, it are enforces the idea that it's all fixed. Would you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training your child for a sport where the results are all fixed?
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
The reason I started this thread was this post from the Worlds Men SP thread:

Now that the US has thoroughly stunk it up in all four singles slots, maybe the USFSA will finally invest some real PR love into D/W and the rest of the ice dance program give it's the only reliable leg US skating has to stand on. Also, invest more in the up coming pair teams that are all showing so much promise. I hate to be so negative, but IMO, this current generation of singles skaters are all a lost cause. At best, they are hot and cold (Abbott and Wagner) and at worst, they are utterly unfit as competitors (Czizny and Rippon). I know they are working hard, but they are just not doing it at an almost predictable level at this point. I cant even really get myself excited for US ladies or men at this point.

It seems that even among fans that Ice Dance gets no love. In my first post, I was hoping people would notice that Pairs and Ice Dance did quite well at this competition (give or take a few mistakes and a mini-meltdown from the Shibs). But we are three pages in and it's all gloom and doom because of the singles skaters with few acknowledgement of the placement of the pairs and Ice Dance.

Pairs has some of the toughest competition out there, and the fact that both D/C and M/B both were able to be in the top 10 is something noteworthy, especially since it's the first for both teams in their current incarnation (Obviously 3 of the 4 have been there before with other partners). I'm not saying they've arrived — they have a lot of work to do as far as polish and upping their levels. But I was actually left hopeful about the future of Pairs for once. Back home we still have Evora and Ladwig, Donlan and Speroff and new competitor Yankowskas and Reagan!

And Ice Dance. All three teams were top 10. The U.S. and Russia were the only two countries to have all three teams in the top 10. That is awesome. Sure the Shibs had a bad day, but they fought for their dance and still managed to keep it together for a top 10 finish. And that's just the people who went. We have Chock and Bates, Samuelson and Gilles, Alderidge and Eaton coming up from juniors....So excited!

Also consider this: The U.S. has had 3 spots in Ice Dance since 2006.

Yes singles are tough...but there's more to figure skating than men and ladies.
 
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Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I think of lot of parents are reluctant to put their children into figure skating these days. In the past, there were fewer sporting opportunities for girls and skating was one sport where they were welcomed and treated well. But the emphasis on super young girls doing big triple jumps after the demise of figures, many of whom left the sport due to injuries, gave the impression that figure skating was eating up young girls and spitting them out. A lot of adults looked at skaters like Oksanna Bauill and Tara Lipinski both of whom "retired" at age 15 and said "This is no way to raise a child" and I would have to agree with them.

Back to back judging scandals at the Olympics further discouraged parents from putting their hard earned money into a sport where the results were "fixed" from the beginning. Now there are lots of sports which welcome girls and hence, lots of other options for kids who want to compete. The money is better spent on sports where the kids can have fun, as opposed to being subjected to unreasonable amounts of pressure, and where their child has a fair chance to win.

Every time someone insists that politics play a role in the judging, even though others say that the results are resonable, it are enforces the idea that it's all fixed. Would you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars training your child for a sport where the results are all fixed?

Very perceptive. It makes it sound like parents put their girls in figure skating almost against their will, though. Well, maybe they do, since they have to start so young. I was a girl athlete very briefly (before my body changed) and felt I had a lot of other options other than figure skating though. Soccer, softball and basketball have always been around for little girls, at least since the 1970's. I agree about the eating girls and spitting them out aspect, though. Neither of the three sports I mentioned do that, nor do they need a very low weight requirement. US gymnastics, the sport that needs the most training time and the fewest calories is thriving, though, with the US national champion always in the all-around hunt at worlds. So go figure. It's a mystery to me!
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I've changed my mind, I no longer have hope for the Americans, especially after today.

May they ALL go down in flames, including the USFSA, the most pathetic ragtag group of American skaters I've ever seen in my life. Disgusting. :disagree: :disapp: :mad:

To h(double LL) with them all. I've had to witness this caca for the past two years upon my return for Zhenya, and him only. It's just too bad that in the process I've had to see the Americans. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck. :no:


ps: they make me disgusted to be an American. And that's the truth.

Nadine, I hear ya. I feel the same way. I felt grossed out watching Adam and Jeremy today, and I didn't even see the short programs of anybody. I have a smidgen of hope for Ashley coming in 4-5. She's a long program skater, so she may move up. But I'm not optimistic.

And no need to wish they all go down in flames. They're doing it quite nicely without your help. Let's hope this is the last we ever see of Jeremy, Adam and Alissa Czisny.

I think the USFS has been trying to turn these second-tier level skaters into stars, or hoping they would become so. Except for one GPF victory, they have been nothing short of mediocre on the world stage. It's like if it were the 00's without Michelle, Sasha and Sarah, and the US had to make do with Tonia K., Angela N. and Jenny K.

It's time to give up on this bunch. Put the support behind Ross Miner, or new n improved CAroline, or somebody. But please, no more Adam, Alissa or Jeremy.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It seems that even among fans that Ice Dance gets no love. In my first post, I was hoping people would notice that Pairs and Ice Dance did quite well at this competition (give or take a few mistakes and a mini-meltdown from the Shibs). But we are three pages in and it's all gloom and doom because of the singles skaters with few acknowledgement of the placement of the pairs and Ice Dance.

Yes, I realize that we have strong dance teams- but I just cannot get into it. I mean, consider that I watched Davis/White and Virtue/Moir at worlds and immediately felt slighted at the result. Did nothing to disprove my theory that the results are pre-determined. Yawn.

And as for pairs, the US has never been a serious force, part of the reason being our couples never stay together. Chances Denney/Coughlin and Marley/Brubaker will be no more after this season? Roll a die. Or maybe even flip a coin!
 
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