The state of U.S. Figure Skating

mskater93 · Apr 2, 2012

Found the applicable rules in the rulebook (p63):
ICR 2.03 The International Committee (IC) shall have a nine-member Management Subcommittee (ICMS). The ICMS chair shall be the International Committee chair, and other members shall consist of the International Committee sectional vice chairs, the International Committee oversight official, the International Committee immediate past chair, two non-competing athletes and one coach, all of whom are members of the International Committee. In the event the IC immediate past chair is unavailable to serve on the ICMS, the ICMS may fill that vacancy with another member of the IC.
A. A quorum of the ICMS shall consist of a majority of the voting members. An action of the ICMS will be determined by a two-thirds majority of the members actually voting.
B. The ICMS is responsible for nomination and entry of athletes to compete in all international competitions and the World University Games, based on the approved criteria;
C. The ICMS is responsible for the governance of athletes selected and entered in ICR 2.02
(E) and shall have the right to withhold or withdraw selection of an athlete from any assignment:
1. For failure to abide by the applicable rules, policies and procedures of U.S. Figure Skating and, if applicable, the USOC, or
2. For conduct in violation of GR 1.01 or GR 1.02 or for any false statements, or misrepresentations on documentation, contracts and/or agreements, and/or
3. For acting in a manner not deemed appropriate for a member of the U.S. Figure Skating Team.

She did not warrant withdrawal of selection based on the rules.

Spun Silver · Apr 2, 2012

Mskater, you are alluding to the risk of Alissa suing USFSA. Is that realistic? I mean, what skater has ever sued the USFSA? I'm not a lawyer but this seems dubious. Is there a written guarantee that the silver medalist at Nats must be sent to Worlds? Chuckm says not. So what case would she have? Keep in mind the expense of suing, and what exactly would she sue for? It's not like she could argue she definitely would have won a medal and money at Worlds.

I also wonder if #C2 on the rule you quote above might be vague enough to fit her case (e.g., if her team said she was healthy and she wasn't), but without knowing the facts, we really can't answer that.

R.D. · Apr 2, 2012

There is no precedence nor rules that say a skater who competes between Nationals and Worlds who has a craptastic skate is going to get replaced for Worlds. If US Figure Skating had attempted to do it based on the results from CC, they would have likely faced a lawsuit at worst, an injunction to keep her on the team at best (think Tonya Harding in 94) and looked incredibly foolish, even moreso than they do with her placing 22nd.

So the point is this: if they are not legally allowed to do it NOW, perhaps they should consider updating their policies to allow more latitude in this area. The "Czisny Rule(s)" if you will.

louisa05 · Apr 2, 2012

Instituting a "we think you might not skate well enough" rule would open a really messy can of worms down the road.

Dragonlady · Apr 2, 2012

R.D. said:
So the point is this: if they are not legally allowed to do it NOW, perhaps they should consider updating their policies to allow more latitude in this area. The "Czisny Rule(s)" if you will.

And then you'll get complaints of politics being involved when it happens. They pulled Susie because the USFSA doesn't like her and they do like Sally so they sent her. Look at all of the outrage when Kwan was given the Olympic berth in 2006 because she didn't "earn" it.

Duhamel & Radford had a disasterous competition at 4CC, finishing off the podium in an event where they expected to finish no worse than second, and possibly win. Should Skate Canada have pulled them because they had a bad outing. They finished fifith and scored personal bests in both short and long programs. I'd be reluctant to allow a federation to pull the ticket once given unless in response to some sort of violation.

Tonya Harding was left off the 2004 Olympic Team and she sued - and she won. So yes, there is a lawsuit precedent.

sweetskates1 · Apr 2, 2012

Why are we still going on about Alissa's meltdown? She has never been a great competitor; last season was a fluke. I highly doubt that she was injured, so really the comparisons to Rachael Flatt are pointless. Alissa should just retire. All she would probably do is cry some more if she read the boards. She will never be our 'other' Michelle Kwan or Carolina's American equivalent. Let it go. Alissa was never expected, realistically, to get her act together and beat the other top ladies. At most, we hoped and prayed she would not unravel like she did.

We have so many other things to worry about: the Russian threat, Jeremy Abbott's prospects at 26, Evan Lysacek's possible return, Weir's return, Joshua Farris' Senior debut, Jason Brown's triple axel, the rising pairs teams, Gold's test of fire, the possibility of Zhang's continued improvement, Wagner's reaction to increased expectations, the potential coaching change for Zawadski and the redemption or retirement for Nagasu.

Really, honestly. It seems simple enough to me, Alissa was not born to compete. She does not possess the rare qualities of icellerina triple-axing Mao. Carolina is older but she has always been a jumper lacking musicality and emotion. Alissa has always exuded soft tender emotion and moved gracefully while splatting all over the place or landing barely powerful short jumps.

Let us look forward and move on.

Poodlepal · Apr 2, 2012

I agree. Hopefully Alissa will either get the help she needs (are they allowed to take a mild tranquilizer? Seriously, a case of nerves that bad may need medical help, if that's what it was) or move on to the next part of her life. She seems sweet and kind, like she'd be an excellent coach for little kids.

What concerns me is the nonstop "up and comers" who never make it. In 2008, the US swept the Junior Worlds. What a brilliant future ahead for US skating. Well, you know what happened. The gold medalist is studying engineering, the silver medalist had a horrible fall (although is doing better as of late) and the bronze medalist, arguably the most talented--well, we could go on about her and her lackluster competitions for months.

We have the same situation with the men. Steven Carriere beat Patrick Chan for the gold. Now, he's disappeared. I think the question is why are so many of our junior stars not making it in the big leagues. Coaching? Bad jump techniques? Just puberty? Interestingly, a lot of Russians/Soviet kids also disappeared, and a lot of those who won big never won or even medalled at the juniors.

louisa05 · Apr 2, 2012

I think the fact is that success on the junior level is absolutely no guarantee of success on the senior level. Looking at the top ten juniors in all disciplines from four years ago, for example, there are not a lot of names there that have had a huge impact as seniors. Only one senior world medalist in the lot and not the skater anyone would have predicted in 2008--Alena Leonova.

Tonichelle · Apr 2, 2012

Mathman said:
(I think Roosevelt also said, "I like Plushenko. He skates like a Bull Moose.")

actually I think she said his NOSE is like a bull moose, but close enough.

*hides*

chuckm · Apr 2, 2012

Tonya Harding was the 1994 US Champion and according to the rules was guaranteed an Olympic berth. That's why she had grounds to sue USFS. But Alissa is not 2012 US Champion and has no guarantee with regard to attending Worlds. She could have been replaced, because she had no grounds for a lawsuit.

BTW, Stephen Carriere is a full-time college student.

sweetskates1 · Apr 2, 2012

I have absolutely no idea why so many of our stars have failed to transition into the senior ranks. I think a lot of them can not deal with the pressure we place on them. American figure skating fans are avidly looking for saviors. For Mirai it proved to be too much, Stephen Carriere does not seem to be fully focused on skating, Adam is too old fashioned, and Jason Brown is too carefree. I am betting on Joshua Farris and Ross Miner. They seemed to have the best mix of ingredients out of the bunch. My favorites are still Jeremy Abbott, Jason Brown and Adam Rippon but I do not believe the success of our team is something we can expect them to produce. They are beautiful artists but off the bat just not the best of athletes in terms of jumps.

Poodlepal said:
I agree. Hopefully Alissa will either get the help she needs (are they allowed to take a mild tranquilizer? Seriously, a case of nerves that bad may need medical help, if that's what it was) or move on to the next part of her life. She seems sweet and kind, like she'd be an excellent coach for little kids.

What concerns me is the nonstop "up and comers" who never make it. In 2008, the US swept the Junior Worlds. What a brilliant future ahead for US skating. Well, you know what happened. The gold medalist is studying engineering, the silver medalist had a horrible fall (although is doing better as of late) and the bronze medalist, arguably the most talented--well, we could go on about her and her lackluster competitions for months.

We have the same situation with the men. Steven Carriere beat Patrick Chan for the gold. Now, he's disappeared. I think the question is why are so many of our junior stars not making it in the big leagues. Coaching? Bad jump techniques? Just puberty? Interestingly, a lot of Russians/Soviet kids also disappeared, and a lot of those who won big never won or even medalled at the juniors.

Tonichelle · Apr 2, 2012

Dragonlady said:
And then you'll get complaints of politics being involved when it happens. They pulled Susie because the USFSA doesn't like her and they do like Sally so they sent her. Look at all of the outrage when Kwan was given the Olympic berth in 2006 because she didn't "earn" it.

My outrage was not that she didn't earn it at Nationals, but that her test skate was not public to even teh media and she was in no way prepared. She wasn't about to become a CoP friendly skater, and all of this came to a head when she went to the olys and couldn't do it. Thankfully she pulled out in time for Emily to skate - had she not pulled out, though, she'd not have had half the wrath flatt or czisny had done. It'd somehow get flipped to those evil judges holding her down in all her Kwanness and daring to say someone not as amazing as she is should win gold....

thankfully, Michelle saw better for the team and allowed Emily her chance, maybe remembering her place in 1994.

Jammers · Apr 2, 2012

I haven't seen a meltdown as bad as Alissa had since Carolina at the Olympics. It was every bit as cringe worthy as she just kept falling time after time. I'll never forget her covering her face with her hands when she finished she was so embarrassed.

Olympia · Apr 2, 2012

Poodlepal said:
What concerns me is the nonstop "up and comers" who never make it. In 2008, the US swept the Junior Worlds. What a brilliant future ahead for US skating. Well, you know what happened. The gold medalist is studying engineering, the silver medalist had a horrible fall (although is doing better as of late) and the bronze medalist, arguably the most talented--well, we could go on about her and her lackluster competitions for months.

We have the same situation with the men. Steven Carriere beat Patrick Chan for the gold. Now, he's disappeared. I think the question is why are so many of our junior stars not making it in the big leagues. Coaching? Bad jump techniques? Just puberty? Interestingly, a lot of Russians/Soviet kids also disappeared, and a lot of those who won big never won or even medalled at the juniors.

Yes, this is what we should be concentrating on in terms of worries. No solution to this problem occurs to me, alas.

heyang · Apr 2, 2012

Jammers said:
I haven't seen a meltdown as bad as Alissa had since Carolina at the Olympics. It was every bit as cringe worthy as she just kept falling time after time. I'll never forget her covering her face with her hands when she finished she was so embarrassed.

Perhaps Chen Lu in 1997? She went from #1 in 1995 to #2 in 1996 in a really close decisions to barely qualifying at World's in 1997 and then bounced back for Olympic bronze in 1998.

brightphoton · Apr 2, 2012

heyang said:
Perhaps Chen Lu in 1997? She went from #1 in 1995 to #2 in 1996 in a really close decisions to barely qualifying at World's in 1997 and then bounced back for Olympic bronze in 1998.

Two BIG differences in Lulu's situation:

1) Chen Lu was known as a powerful and consistent jumper, something Czisny never was.
2) Chen Lu was also injured and had troubles with her coaches in 1997, but she was forced to skate anyway because her federation wanted to get spots for the Olympics. Czisny went to Worlds ... to offer her free butt zamboni services, I suppose.

mskater93 · Apr 3, 2012

chuckm said:
Tonya Harding was the 1994 US Champion and according to the rules was guaranteed an Olympic berth. That's why she had grounds to sue USFS. But Alissa is not 2012 US Champion and has no guarantee with regard to attending Worlds. She could have been replaced, because she had no grounds for a lawsuit.

BUT Alissa had already been named to the World Team at Nationals. It was at an event AFTER Nationals that she really bombed. There is no precedent to remove a World Team member unless the rules I quoted were broken and, with the litigious nature of the American society, there's a posibility that she would have sued as they had no grounds to remove her based on the rules as written. Nowhere do I see a rule that says a World Team berth can be revoked due to screwing up at a competition after Nationals.

MarkusNJ · Apr 3, 2012

I am done with Alissa. I just can't anymore...22 in the world? 7 falls in one competition? I love her...but I am done.
Same with Adam. Sorry....you don't got it. Every 4 or 5 competitions he does OK, and everyone is so sure he is on the right track! Then...splat. I have grown to serious;y dislike Mirai and after reading her tweets during 4CC's, she proved to be the immature brat I always thought she was, she just made it public.

Bring on Ashley (who actually FIGHTS) Agnes (who is still brewing) and Gracie. Then, bring on Ross Miner. He has fire, and is slowly growing....

Mathman · Apr 3, 2012

Tonichelle said:
My outrage was not that (Michelle Kwan) didn't earn it at Nationals, but that her test skate was not public to even the media and she was in no way prepared. She wasn't about to become a CoP friendly skater, and all of this came to a head when she went to the olys and couldn't do it.

In retrospect I wonder if the USFSA was pressured by NBC television to get as much PR mileage out of Michelle as possible.

mskater93 · Apr 3, 2012

MarkusNJ, can you elaborate on the tweets during 4C? I missed that.

The state of U.S. Figure Skating

mskater93

Spun Silver

R.D.

louisa05

Dragonlady

sweetskates1

Poodlepal

louisa05

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

chuckm

sweetskates1

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Jammers

Olympia

heyang

brightphoton

mskater93

MarkusNJ

Mathman

mskater93

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