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Thread: The state of U.S. Figure Skating

  1. #241
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Found the applicable rules in the rulebook (p63):
    ICR 2.03 The International Committee (IC) shall have a nine-member Management Subcommittee (ICMS). The ICMS chair shall be the International Committee chair, and other members shall consist of the International Committee sectional vice chairs, the International Committee oversight official, the International Committee immediate past chair, two non-competing athletes and one coach, all of whom are members of the International Committee. In the event the IC immediate past chair is unavailable to serve on the ICMS, the ICMS may fill that vacancy with another member of the IC.
    A. A quorum of the ICMS shall consist of a majority of the voting members. An action of the ICMS will be determined by a two-thirds majority of the members actually voting.
    B. The ICMS is responsible for nomination and entry of athletes to compete in all international competitions and the World University Games, based on the approved criteria;
    C. The ICMS is responsible for the governance of athletes selected and entered in ICR 2.02
    (E) and shall have the right to withhold or withdraw selection of an athlete from any assignment:
    1. For failure to abide by the applicable rules, policies and procedures of U.S. Figure Skating and, if applicable, the USOC, or
    2. For conduct in violation of GR 1.01 or GR 1.02 or for any false statements, or misrepresentations on documentation, contracts and/or agreements, and/or
    3. For acting in a manner not deemed appropriate for a member of the U.S. Figure Skating Team.

    She did not warrant withdrawal of selection based on the rules.

  2. #242
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
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    Mskater, you are alluding to the risk of Alissa suing USFSA. Is that realistic? I mean, what skater has ever sued the USFSA? I'm not a lawyer but this seems dubious. Is there a written guarantee that the silver medalist at Nats must be sent to Worlds? Chuckm says not. So what case would she have? Keep in mind the expense of suing, and what exactly would she sue for? It's not like she could argue she definitely would have won a medal and money at Worlds.

    I also wonder if #C2 on the rule you quote above might be vague enough to fit her case (e.g., if her team said she was healthy and she wasn't), but without knowing the facts, we really can't answer that.

  3. #243
    Down With It
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    There is no precedence nor rules that say a skater who competes between Nationals and Worlds who has a craptastic skate is going to get replaced for Worlds. If US Figure Skating had attempted to do it based on the results from CC, they would have likely faced a lawsuit at worst, an injunction to keep her on the team at best (think Tonya Harding in 94) and looked incredibly foolish, even moreso than they do with her placing 22nd.
    So the point is this: if they are not legally allowed to do it NOW, perhaps they should consider updating their policies to allow more latitude in this area. The "Czisny Rule(s)" if you will.
    Last edited by R.D.; 04-02-2012 at 05:18 PM.

  4. #244
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    Instituting a "we think you might not skate well enough" rule would open a really messy can of worms down the road.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    So the point is this: if they are not legally allowed to do it NOW, perhaps they should consider updating their policies to allow more latitude in this area. The "Czisny Rule(s)" if you will.
    And then you'll get complaints of politics being involved when it happens. They pulled Susie because the USFSA doesn't like her and they do like Sally so they sent her. Look at all of the outrage when Kwan was given the Olympic berth in 2006 because she didn't "earn" it.

    Duhamel & Radford had a disasterous competition at 4CC, finishing off the podium in an event where they expected to finish no worse than second, and possibly win. Should Skate Canada have pulled them because they had a bad outing. They finished fifith and scored personal bests in both short and long programs. I'd be reluctant to allow a federation to pull the ticket once given unless in response to some sort of violation.

    Tonya Harding was left off the 2004 Olympic Team and she sued - and she won. So yes, there is a lawsuit precedent.

  6. #246
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    Why are we still going on about Alissa's meltdown? She has never been a great competitor; last season was a fluke. I highly doubt that she was injured, so really the comparisons to Rachael Flatt are pointless. Alissa should just retire. All she would probably do is cry some more if she read the boards. She will never be our 'other' Michelle Kwan or Carolina's American equivalent. Let it go. Alissa was never expected, realistically, to get her act together and beat the other top ladies. At most, we hoped and prayed she would not unravel like she did.

    We have so many other things to worry about: the Russian threat, Jeremy Abbott's prospects at 26, Evan Lysacek's possible return, Weir's return, Joshua Farris' Senior debut, Jason Brown's triple axel, the rising pairs teams, Gold's test of fire, the possibility of Zhang's continued improvement, Wagner's reaction to increased expectations, the potential coaching change for Zawadski and the redemption or retirement for Nagasu.

    Really, honestly. It seems simple enough to me, Alissa was not born to compete. She does not possess the rare qualities of icellerina triple-axing Mao. Carolina is older but she has always been a jumper lacking musicality and emotion. Alissa has always exuded soft tender emotion and moved gracefully while splatting all over the place or landing barely powerful short jumps.

    Let us look forward and move on.

  7. #247
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    I agree. Hopefully Alissa will either get the help she needs (are they allowed to take a mild tranquilizer? Seriously, a case of nerves that bad may need medical help, if that's what it was) or move on to the next part of her life. She seems sweet and kind, like she'd be an excellent coach for little kids.

    What concerns me is the nonstop "up and comers" who never make it. In 2008, the US swept the Junior Worlds. What a brilliant future ahead for US skating. Well, you know what happened. The gold medalist is studying engineering, the silver medalist had a horrible fall (although is doing better as of late) and the bronze medalist, arguably the most talented--well, we could go on about her and her lackluster competitions for months.

    We have the same situation with the men. Steven Carriere beat Patrick Chan for the gold. Now, he's disappeared. I think the question is why are so many of our junior stars not making it in the big leagues. Coaching? Bad jump techniques? Just puberty? Interestingly, a lot of Russians/Soviet kids also disappeared, and a lot of those who won big never won or even medalled at the juniors.

  8. #248
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    I think the fact is that success on the junior level is absolutely no guarantee of success on the senior level. Looking at the top ten juniors in all disciplines from four years ago, for example, there are not a lot of names there that have had a huge impact as seniors. Only one senior world medalist in the lot and not the skater anyone would have predicted in 2008--Alena Leonova.

  9. #249
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    (I think Roosevelt also said, "I like Plushenko. He skates like a Bull Moose.")
    actually I think she said his NOSE is like a bull moose, but close enough.


    *hides*

  10. #250
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    Tonya Harding was the 1994 US Champion and according to the rules was guaranteed an Olympic berth. That's why she had grounds to sue USFS. But Alissa is not 2012 US Champion and has no guarantee with regard to attending Worlds. She could have been replaced, because she had no grounds for a lawsuit.

    BTW, Stephen Carriere is a full-time college student.

  11. #251
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    I have absolutely no idea why so many of our stars have failed to transition into the senior ranks. I think a lot of them can not deal with the pressure we place on them. American figure skating fans are avidly looking for saviors. For Mirai it proved to be too much, Stephen Carriere does not seem to be fully focused on skating, Adam is too old fashioned, and Jason Brown is too carefree. I am betting on Joshua Farris and Ross Miner. They seemed to have the best mix of ingredients out of the bunch. My favorites are still Jeremy Abbott, Jason Brown and Adam Rippon but I do not believe the success of our team is something we can expect them to produce. They are beautiful artists but off the bat just not the best of athletes in terms of jumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    I agree. Hopefully Alissa will either get the help she needs (are they allowed to take a mild tranquilizer? Seriously, a case of nerves that bad may need medical help, if that's what it was) or move on to the next part of her life. She seems sweet and kind, like she'd be an excellent coach for little kids.

    What concerns me is the nonstop "up and comers" who never make it. In 2008, the US swept the Junior Worlds. What a brilliant future ahead for US skating. Well, you know what happened. The gold medalist is studying engineering, the silver medalist had a horrible fall (although is doing better as of late) and the bronze medalist, arguably the most talented--well, we could go on about her and her lackluster competitions for months.

    We have the same situation with the men. Steven Carriere beat Patrick Chan for the gold. Now, he's disappeared. I think the question is why are so many of our junior stars not making it in the big leagues. Coaching? Bad jump techniques? Just puberty? Interestingly, a lot of Russians/Soviet kids also disappeared, and a lot of those who won big never won or even medalled at the juniors.

  12. #252
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    And then you'll get complaints of politics being involved when it happens. They pulled Susie because the USFSA doesn't like her and they do like Sally so they sent her. Look at all of the outrage when Kwan was given the Olympic berth in 2006 because she didn't "earn" it.
    My outrage was not that she didn't earn it at Nationals, but that her test skate was not public to even teh media and she was in no way prepared. She wasn't about to become a CoP friendly skater, and all of this came to a head when she went to the olys and couldn't do it. Thankfully she pulled out in time for Emily to skate - had she not pulled out, though, she'd not have had half the wrath flatt or czisny had done. It'd somehow get flipped to those evil judges holding her down in all her Kwanness and daring to say someone not as amazing as she is should win gold....

    thankfully, Michelle saw better for the team and allowed Emily her chance, maybe remembering her place in 1994.

  13. #253
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    I haven't seen a meltdown as bad as Alissa had since Carolina at the Olympics. It was every bit as cringe worthy as she just kept falling time after time. I'll never forget her covering her face with her hands when she finished she was so embarrassed.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    What concerns me is the nonstop "up and comers" who never make it. In 2008, the US swept the Junior Worlds. What a brilliant future ahead for US skating. Well, you know what happened. The gold medalist is studying engineering, the silver medalist had a horrible fall (although is doing better as of late) and the bronze medalist, arguably the most talented--well, we could go on about her and her lackluster competitions for months.

    We have the same situation with the men. Steven Carriere beat Patrick Chan for the gold. Now, he's disappeared. I think the question is why are so many of our junior stars not making it in the big leagues. Coaching? Bad jump techniques? Just puberty? Interestingly, a lot of Russians/Soviet kids also disappeared, and a lot of those who won big never won or even medalled at the juniors.
    Yes, this is what we should be concentrating on in terms of worries. No solution to this problem occurs to me, alas.

  15. #255
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    I haven't seen a meltdown as bad as Alissa had since Carolina at the Olympics. It was every bit as cringe worthy as she just kept falling time after time. I'll never forget her covering her face with her hands when she finished she was so embarrassed.
    Perhaps Chen Lu in 1997? She went from #1 in 1995 to #2 in 1996 in a really close decisions to barely qualifying at World's in 1997 and then bounced back for Olympic bronze in 1998.

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