The state of U.S. Figure Skating

for me it is because the USFSA pushes the ones they want -you win junior nationals they automatically put you up and hold you up regardless of how you skate well, when you skate well, why you skate well.

in the past they did cheat for tara-not so much because she kinda of fought -but she did ur her triple triple,sarah did the same, sasha did the same-but had artistric and held her up so much at the expense of jumps,
other countries, federations focused on cleaning up those jumps, and made their skaters improve said jumps, tranisitions, speed, flow etc . the U.S. just let the skaters they wanted up be-like mirai, sasha, rachel, ashley to a point, alissa, jeremy, adam, pairs, they didnt care.
when had camp which i thought was suppose to have the programs ready -they didn't they just skated.
so the other countries caught up because they focused on what they wanted and needed to be done to be better.
the u.s has slogged along instead of propping up the skaters who skated cleanly(although not all the time) like michelle they back the skaters who didn't do jumps right in favor of others. kimmie got nailed after she won worlds and hard time coming back-so she left the sport. instead of helping the U.s. skaters get better in said jumps, they just focus and hope on next best skater-prop up the ones the older gold medalist want. they used to have a say in the matter-they watch and boy are they so-so-like the so called mentoring phase which didn't help but hurt, they prop up certain clubs skaters in favor of better skaters below the so-called club skaters.
nationals the past years is best example-all the skaters ur, edge call , two foot jumps and they only call out caroline zhang and others they don't want. sasha 2010 skate at nationals overscores
this year mirai wind sin 7tht , rachel 6th, i can go on and on. but i think it is save to say the U.S. only keeps up the skaters they want regardless of the situation, cost and who is better skater.
they send who might be better skaters, but not exactly the best. (both mind, skating ability, handle the situation, fight for it)

why should u.s skater skate well after all michelle did land 7 clean triple in 98 yet tara won because youngest base on ur triple/triple 5 jumps with a juniorish skate-why

2002 sarah won based on so-called 2 triple triples, no artistic and ur jumps.
even kristi won with messed up program-fall, hand down

2002-michelle was counted as a fall-not a trip.

2006 shizuka won with 5 clean-good jumps

2010-yu-na won with good jumps-decent artistry
inother words u.s. ladies has tara, sarah, kristi as examples-bad jumping technique wins as long you have federation and gold medalist behind you regardless.

race also plays a factor in there-
however now the situation is overblown a bit, but the U.s needs to send skaters that can handle and skate well, not give up and make excuses at every turn.

This is probably not something that will be well received anywhere as they seem to have universal admiration. But rather than screaming bloody murder at USFSA, questioning Nationals' judging or timing or whatever, or blaming race or all of this other stuff, has it occurred to anyone else that three of the four singles skaters at Worlds train at the same facility with the same coaches? Perhaps questions about preparation need to focus on Sato and Dungjen? Barring a meltdown, the one singles skater not coached by them will have the highest finish, after all.

Worlds is now over and I find I still feel the same way. I mean I'm happy for Ashley finishing the highest of any American lady since 2006, but overall I'm just really unhappy with American skating in general and have been for years now, though there was a spark when Sasha Cohen made her comeback during the Olympic Year. But if we're honest with ourselves American skating is dead and has been for some time now. And this Worlds was the last nail in the coffin.

I'm just glad it's all over with, lol.

I made a thread like this before but why does USFS not have some type of national training camp like usa gymnastics does ? I mean I know we have champs camp but is that really doing anything ?

Yes. Champs Camp is when the skaters get initial feedback on their programs.

As for no national training camp like gymnastics, there is no one coach who oversees the international committee. Who do you put in charge?

Champs Camp seems to be PR training, rules type meetings and silly bonding games. Perhaps they need to think about utilizing that time differently.

I think we have a dearth of strong young coaches, quite frankly. Our best singles skater at Worlds is coached by an 82 year old.

Actually, there are some great younger coaches in the US, they just don't have the same political pull as that 82 year old Brit.

louisa05 said:

I think we have a dearth of strong young coaches, quite frankly. Our best singles skater at Worlds is coached by an 82 year old.

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That would seem to indicate that we don't need young coaches, we need more good coaches of whatever age.

Spun Silver said:

That would seem to indicate that we don't need young coaches, we need more good coaches of whatever age.

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Unless you are assuming Nicks is going to be living forever...

Sato-Dungjen oversaw a trio of under performers in Nice. Tom Z is completely on the outs after last year's debacles with injured skaters. Gold's coaches aren't exactly excelling when it comes to expression and choreo, and it seems naive to assume she is going to burst on the senior scene with high PCS without a lot of changes. Julie Berlin is likely responsible for Czisny's technique issues. We haven't seen much from Wagner or Hill lately in terms of higher level competitors. The Kwan-Oppegard team took no one to Worlds... And the list goes on.

I blame the USF for Adam, Alissa.
Adam was held up at Nationals. His PCS should be way lower. I said it when I saw it. There's no way he's competitive. After 4CC, they should have sent Ross.
Alissa was help up greatly at Nat. Her PCS was a joke. She had no transition at all. Her SP shouldn't get anywhere near 60 but they gave her 63 or something. Ridiculous. Her LP should get about 20 points lower than actual score. Somehow she managed to win the silver medal. Disgusting! Judging at Nat is about the same as here. No real accountability at all. Anyway, after the Challenge cup, take her out of the roster. Put Zhang in. You don't have to follow the alternate order. Mirai finished lower than Rachael, but they put her in the alternate list anyway, correct? They can change the list to have Zhang as first alternate after 4cc.
Jeremy was a hot mess at the Challenge cup, but because he wasn't injured and because he won fair and square at Nats, I would still send him.

I would investigate Yuka and Jason and Alissa. Fine them, humiliate them in public, have hersh beat them with a proverbial stick just like they did to Rachael last year. Well, not even so. They should have harsher punishment for these three because they KNEW what would happen and they did it anyway.

So you're saying that the US skaters were never any good? For real?
You think if Kristi, Sarah and Tara were skating today, they'd be as bad as the nightmares of the last few years? Really?

The mistakes that Tara and Sarah made might be picked on more today, but they were still competitors. They did not meltdown. Kristi is one of the last gold medalists to fall in the long program, but again, she was a fighter and a champion. And Michelle wasn't propped up? Seriously? When? She won Nationals about 8 years in a row. And I think the American judge--back in the good old days when you knew which judge was which--put her in first at least above Tara. In both 1998 and 2002, she was the favored one, not the younger white girls.

1998 it could've gon either way, perhaps.
But in '02, falling was a big no-no. A faller didn't beat a cleanie. And Sarah, underrotated or not, was clean. Today, maybe Michelle would've won. Anyway, any racism against skaters of Chinese descent who fall in their long programs is completely gone now, that's for sure.

Wasn't Kristi the first to put triple lutz triple toe in competition in order to be competitive with Midori Ido?
Circa now, that's like Ashley Wagner putting in a quad lutz - triple loop combo to be competitive with Yuna, Carolina, Mao (at her best), and Miki (at her best)

Give Kristi some credit. She was fierce!

louisa05 said:

This is probably not something that will be well received anywhere as they seem to have universal admiration. But rather than screaming bloody murder at USFSA, questioning Nationals' judging or timing or whatever, or blaming race or all of this other stuff, has it occurred to anyone else that three of the four singles skaters at Worlds train at the same facility with the same coaches? Perhaps questions about preparation need to focus on Sato and Dungjen? Barring a meltdown, the one singles skater not coached by them will have the highest finish, after all.

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As related to Jeremy and Alyssa, both had nerve issues before they moved to Sato and Dungjen. Their problems aren't a result of their coaching changes - if anything , they've improved technically. They both also have experienced their highest finishes with their current coaches. So, I don't think it's the coaches, but rather the skaters.

Rippon has only been with Jason since June 2011 - less than a year. I'd give it another year before critiquing the relationship.

FlattFan said:

Wasn't Kristi the first to put triple lutz triple toe in competition in order to be competitive with Midori Ido?
Circa now, that's like Ashley Wagner putting in a quad lutz - triple loop combo to be competitive with Yuna, Carolina, Mao (at her best), and Miki (at her best)

Give Kristi some credit. She was fierce!

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Kristi had the one flaw in her Oly long program, but that competition was a splat fest. I can still recall the bruises developing on Kerrigan and Hubert's legs due to all of their falls. Kristi's was the cleanest of the night and she had a beautiful short program.

FlattFan said:

Judging at Nat is about the same as here. No real accountability at all. Anyway, after the Challenge cup, take her out of the roster. Put Zhang in. You don't have to follow the alternate order.

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For once, I agree with FlattFan. USFSA has not really learned have they? And they continue to lowball skaters like Caroline who continue to prove that they score well with the international judges. Guess who judges the Olympics? Hint: not USFSA judges. Perhaps Peter Oppegard was surprised by his new pupil's success this season but next season he really has no excuse not to get a little better at politicking on Caroline's behalf.

Caroline still has major weaknesses though. Her lack of speed and small jumps would still be a major problem at Worlds for instance.

Unlike Nadine, I am not ashamed to be an American. And I don't take the bombing of US athletes at a World Competition to be a blow to my personal self-esteem. However, I am royally angered at the USFSA. A lousy, weak-willed organization whose collective head seems to be firmly placed somewhere the sun don't shine....at least if there is anything about their mission that involves producing international champions. I had been a member since the early 1990's but after watching the trend of this outfit over the last several years, with so many issues bobbled, I let my membership lapse last year. If their primary goal is to avoid lawsuits, there's not a lot of hope. There's just no apparent strong leadership or any indication that a firm hand is on the steering wheel driving the bus. Insiders who know more, feel free to comment.

Say what you want about ISU's Speedy Cinquanta, at least he's firm in his own mind about where he wants the bus to go, and leaves no doubt that he's definitely at the wheel. (The fact that he often aims the bus over the cliff is well...a separate issue.)

louisa05 said:

Unless you are assuming Nicks is going to be living forever...

Sato-Dungjen oversaw a trio of under performers in Nice. Tom Z is completely on the outs after last year's debacles with injured skaters. Gold's coaches aren't exactly excelling when it comes to expression and choreo, and it seems naive to assume she is going to burst on the senior scene with high PCS without a lot of changes. Julie Berlin is likely responsible for Czisny's technique issues. We haven't seen much from Wagner or Hill lately in terms of higher level competitors. The Kwan-Oppegard team took no one to Worlds... And the list goes on.

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When was the last time that USFS put everything in one basket? They picked skaters from one camp just because they trusted that camp so much, the whole national judging was corrupted. They picked World teams according to their "gut feeling" not on the skater merit. They pre-judged the Naitonals according to the "past history and coach reputation". If they're lucky, the skaters they picked did well, if not, it's a disaster. This is an expensive lesson. They have no reason to send Jeremy and Alissa to Hague two weeks before Worlds. If they did it to test the water, then they should reassign the World team since both of them were obviously not ready for Worlds. The result from Hague was identical with Worlds', no surprise.

heyang said:

I'd give it another year before critiquing the relationship.

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I don't think it is about relationship with coaches for any of the three. This isn't the newlywed game or an Oprah interview.

I'm wondering if there is not adequate preparation for competition, not adequate managing of training to prepare them to peak at Worlds. They all three peaked for the season at Nationals and apparently had absolutely nothing left for Worlds. That's a problem of preparation not relationship. And preparation can be fixed.