and... World Peace!
The Iditarod did have a lot of new viewers, but yes I wish it were more accessable. However, its fans do not break laws in order to share it. The Iditarod is like USFSA figure skating - it's pay per view on the internet. I paid my 39 bucks and I was happy with it. Yeah, we'd love it if sponsors would pick up the tab and not fans - it's a debate within the Iditarod - but it is what it is at this point. The Iditarod Insider folk do an amazing job of the video work, they shouldn't have their work stolen and put on youtube.
Iditarod Insider shares several videos for free each day/year. They stopped doing it on youtube only because they wanted folks to come to their site who otherwise wouldn't. Is it shortsightedness? Yes, but it's not like sponsors are beating down their door to get them to be willing to change.
As a photographer who has had their photos stolen, I'm not a fan of this "free use because I figured out how to break the system" mentality. My business did not benefit from having my work stolen and distributed. I lost money.
Maybe. Toni, u lost in the short run, but your work got out there. Maybe business will come back to you. It is very hard with media now to police a world gone instant media crayz. Music, video, whatever. With the advent of tiny cameras, the world became a place for youtube to thrive. I definitely have a different worldview now. I am an unabashed radical due to what corporatism/greed has done to the USA. I also come from a town that not only claims Frank Carroll, but the most amazing Abbie Hoffman who wrote "Steal this Book." Abbie who was the real deal and leader of the Chicago Seven of the SDS is also from my hometown. He is one of my heros decades ahead of his time. We need him now, but he is in another plane of existence. Brilliant, young, fearless like a great many young men now fighting for a world that is fair. Sometimes you have to break the law to save rights. I don't see all these uploaders as lawbreakers.
I see many Universal Sports vids put up on youtube by them. My cable co doesn't have universal, I have no choice of cable co and I can't use satellite on this bldg. So we are getting screwed. I could tell you what T mobile did to me-hey, I don't feel sorry for businesses who are making it more difficult daily and want more and more money. Times are horrible for the average man. We just saw our first amendment rights stolen in every major city. I am a revolutionary in the style of Abbie Hoffman. Though I can't take to the streets, my heart is where the people are at all over this world.There seem to be a variety of organizations, broadcast media using youtube, vevo etc. Given how easily photographs are duplicated, it is tough to always prove ownership. Sorry ur stuff was stolen, what exactly did you do abpout it? What recourse do u have? I think you can use youtube and it's current freeness to your great davantage, regardless of what business u are in. You sound very creative, so I', sure the lemons will become lemonade. Rock on, Toni!
and... World Peace!
No, I didn't make money or gain anything from it. I lost sales on photos because of it. I've had to uglify my shared photos because of it. Dishonesty is never okay. Theft is never okay. This isn't a Robin Hood situation at all.
Yes, you are correct Mathman. it is a Catch-22 situation. I do think you have a valid idea that the posting of OLD footage should not be discontinued.
Originally Posted by Mathman
As related to current footage, posting current competitons on You Tube [before the broadcasters have had their 1st air rights] is not the answer. The internet requires a search for things. Sure, now and then, you come up with something random, but it's too random to indicate that it will increase viewership of skating. There's a far greater chance of someone channel surfing and stopping long enough to begin and interest in skating vs finding it through a random web search.
The USFSA and ISU and other federations need to get the skaters out there more. I'm sure that Kristi's appearance on DWTS resulted in people searching the internet for more on her career. Just as, post winter Olympics, there's an increase in the # of kids enrolling in skating classes. As much as we hate that the Disson specials feature musical guests that get as much camera time as the skating, there's a reason why the big name musical acts are used - they do draw in viewers and audience ticket purchases.
Truthfully, The Harding-Kerrigan scandal is what launched the increased viewership in 1994 - 2002. As a result, viewership of the Olympics increased that year and it was capped off by two beautiful performances by Kerrigan and Baiul and a few others. Then you had the blossoming of the skating of Bobek, Kwan, Lipinski, Cohen and Hughes - leading to more Olympic medals. As well, as a large # of charismatic former champions competing as pro's and going on tours, etc. It was this convergence of factors that gave US Figure Skating it's huge ratings, which lead to more skating be aired than ever before.
and... World Peace!
thank you Heyang
Agreed, Heyang! Skating ought to think of ways to use the Internet to make more skating available, not less. Obviously the concession that fans could make is not to expect YouTube to have the skaters' programs right away. I missed the SPs before they were taken down, but I'm willing to wait a month or more to get a really good look at them. Meanwhile I can see the routines from GP events and the various Nationals. But skating needs to do the equivalent of outreach to attract more fans. I like the way Kristi and Evan attracted attention to skating by going on DWTS. Further ingenuity is required.
Toni, you're not the only person who has had to 'uglify' their online images to prevent people from using them and selling the images. If you look at many image sites, the artists have had to put watermarks on images.
Originally Posted by Tonichelle
Toni, theft is everywhere-youtube generally makes money for all the old musicians rediscovered. I have no idea what you do/how you sell-very few people survive at photography-everyones a photog today. maybe something good may happen, you might attract favor theu one photo. photogs make money with exclusive subjects or for what magazines are left.
SKATING IS FREE ON CBC FOR THOSE WHO DESPISE UTUBE. WATCH THE WHOLE THING-WAS FREE TODAY-THANKS CANADA!
Wicked Yankee Girl
The British Eurosport coverage is up on youtube, as shown by frida340's Channel.
and... World Peace!
I know, but I still don't like that we have to. I guess I just put too high a standard on people. How dare I suggest everything should not be free for the taking.
Originally Posted by heyang
No, not everything free for the taking. Maybe I sounded that way by saying we are in a war with our govt and the corporations/people that own America, so Abbie Hoffman's ideas are for such times as these. I don't do the stuff he did, but the day is coming soon where many of us in America and most of the world will be Jean Valjean. If you have no job, and your child is starving, will you steal a loaf of bread? The question is the same. Theft is theft, the Bible says it is a sin. But when it comes down to survivaal, and it will, what moral high horse will you cling to? The point is Toni, our Congress has been stealing from the working man in multiple ways. You are young, and 1 percent of this country owns 40 percent. There was all kinds of theft, manipulation, lawbreaking,and outright buying of congreemen starting in Reagan days (and before to be fair- but destruction of middle class began in earnest in the early 80's). Have you heard of the Koch Brothers? Research why they are so rich. They should be in jail many times over. Only the poor go to jail )minorities disproportionately). They fund Sarah Palin and all the so called Tea Party millionaire congressman. Your govt allowed your country to be plundered by entities and corporations and you have a poor future ahead of you. Most of us do. Global meltdown to to all the theft-real theft done by Wall Street Ceos on a huge scale that literally destroyed us. Has one CEO gone to jail? Has one bank/investment house been prosecuted?
Please -to use a phrase I learned from you-there are huge issues to fight about-get your ' panties in a wad' about the fact that The ISU is getting greedy and Universal Sports (NBC). Look at the garbage they throw our way and call it programming. Cable never had commericals back when. Why must I pay for TV cable when there are more commercials than programming? I am paying for thiose damn commercials. We are paying thru the nose for everything to keep a handful of people mega rich. We are serfs now in a once great country. How many are involved, trying to stop what seems inevitable?
On this little scale and for purposes of discussion there is FS. Everyone sees the benefits for skaters, skating, survival of skating near extinciont to be on Youtube. You are arguing for the copyright lawyers. The vast majority of artists (Prince is an exception ) know having every last video posted brings new fans, new business. Tyler is on Idol. All the young idol fans who never heard "Walk this way" found it on Youtube. Next step, download Aerosmith great hits from Itunes. So if you are so pro business-you are not even thinking as a total capitalist does, no offense. Short sighted. Youtube is in great danger, the whole thing. I love youtube. It has opened up worlds for me I missed. It seems ok with most everyone in music with few exceptions- it's a win win for them.
I understand now you do some photography and you are a blogger for dog mushing? I didn't read your thread-only so much time- got a new puter- just catching up with skating. So you have concerns about media piracy as it has happened to you. Sorry. It's not something that can be policed unless they shut down youtube-the freedom of info on internet is multi-edged. I am fighting for freedom rather than the opposite. People who would never see an operatic aria can find it on youtube. People who never saw The Beatles on TV can see the the magic to get back to just youtube. Corporations are stealing from us all every day. My lifelong perfect credit was ruined by fraudulent T-Mobile -with the worst biling "errors" of any cell co. Not errors- I could have dumped them after 1 year due to service-no fee, but did not want to deal with new phone, etc. I no longer drive, so everything is a big deal. The story is long-facts on my side-none on theirs-yet Atty general, BBB and congressman could not stop ourtight theft-I am disabled and the amount I must pay is huge. They offered a free service to disabled, I took it, and they backblled me, saying they had caps. I was never told. No proof. A year, a 1 inch folder and they won because they can do as they please.
Powers that be want to destroy the internet, reign it in, have govt with the on/off button as in most Arab and communist countries. And Youtube in particular. The piracy laws are really immmaterial to their aims, but people can easily understand that simple concept.
Privacy is a huge problem and as you likely have read, EMPLOYERS ARE DEMANDING that new employees/applicants hand over their facebook password. Facebook is destined to be a great aid to humanity or part of the intl spying apparatus. I guess Mark's character will decide some huge issues. That scares me big time.
They want to know whatever they can find about you before hiring. While I once dated a CIA man (he did background checks on applicants,. I can see why now, THAT position might merit thorough checking of people in post 9/11 world. I have family who were CIA (they all lie and say DOD) but we knew, it's obvious overseas and one can expect to be investigated to be in the "company." It was mild in the 80's compared to what they go through now before hiring. I was not told a lot- he was good at secrets and when we parted was security guard for Casey, CIA director. But now employers want passwords to Facebook to find ? God only knows. About non US security ordinary American jobs! Terrifying? It should be, and it is to me. I post a lot of "unfair" things and petitions and pgrogressive stories and causes. I have thought maybe I shouldn't because once on the internet it is stored forever, and we all know people have lost jobs by posting some off the cuff comment on Facebook. The internet Big Brothers are everywhere. People are getting paranoid and only Germany really keeps Facebook on it's toes. Youtube is so unique-good and bad. So much of the good would disappear overnight if certain artists and their lawyers representing hidden aims get their way. Not the stuff of conspirsacy theories. Just the truth.
We are living in a world where the last "freedom" of speech and that is debateable, is on the internet. We are losing the freedom battle. I understand that as a photographer whose work was stolden you have personal/ideological reasons for feeling as you do. This extrapolates a lot, but people should not be made to feel bad for watching videos of figureskating on youtube that were uploaded by ? Universal might do it themselves -for a few days-give a taste- then pull it away, brings people to their sight. We really don't know who uploads these. If I were Universal and my only objective was making money (and that's all we can assume, since morality does not exist in the equations anymore) I'd play both sides of the fence. I'd have someone posting them post a FS comp for a few days, whet the appetite, see if it drove people to the .com and see if there were an upsurge in sign ups.I am sure they exploit and try whastever in the pursuit of the only goal most corps recognize-higher revenues. We as individuals are holding ourselves to standards that the group entities (corporation, governing bodies) do not.
Back to what's available to me. Only IN to see the comps as they happen. But in every comp, several Gsers say " I lost my feed." Service sux but u gotta pay regardless nowadays. How much does IN cost? I put it in caps for those who want to see the competition in America. CBC has everything up as of last night. CBC.com You don't have to pay a fee. I watched the ladies as a competition with much needed for me commentary in English. So I share this with Olympia and MM and others using youtube. If you have an ideological problem with the Youtube concept you can watch here with a clear conscience.
I was the most scrupulous person. But the odds are so against us even surviving the next few years as the dollar loses its value and we crash. Get your panties in a wad about the big, huge issues. As far as intellectual property goes, and media, it will always have problems re its use given the nature of the product. Again, it is too bad your photos got stolen and you feel personal injustice. There is nothing but injustice in this world, my young and very bright friend, as you well know. Much because of all the corporate theft and greed. I sure am not going to feel like I am stealing as I don't know who is posting all these videos on Youtube. These are organizations and networks. None are handcams. They are professional work.
I will post the info on the Edge folder.
OT, as a mod, I wanted to delete my thread, but there was no longer a delete button. This is since I got temp Windows 7 and it was there on the page with apple, but not now, tho, how that would make a difference, I don't know. I think they were deleted as I asked. Once you post a thread, no one answers, do I have the right to delete my own thread? How about if there are answers. Does only a mod have right to delete the thread then I imagine? I looked over whole page, and could not find the delete option. Have any things been recently changed? I know tech. I should ask this is some other forum, but while I have your attention, what happened to my delete option? Thanks
NOW OTOT. BTW You have me curious re your photos. Are they of Iditarod? I'd love to see them. And I never heard of uglifying photos to "identify them." ??? Did you have to put an unattractive dog in the corner? I have no clue how people stop anyone from reproducing photographs (on the internet). Sounds complicated. Since money did not get back to you by the theif putting your work out there wherever, however, it speaks well of your talent. They must be good photos if someone stole them. The lemonade is, your work is desired! Trying to find some positive in the rip-off! Rock on Toni!
Sorry if I took a small issue -our love of FS and the extremes we must go to to watch it in many areas of the country/world and the utter wonderfulness of Youtube-to go to the heart of what you are saying. IS breaking the laws of one's country ever justified? Yes I think. Civil disobedience starts small. We don't ned FS to live u say, and too bad if poster x can't get it due to no no cable. My city grows poorer by the day. So many choices are gone-sold off-gone.
One last thought - people cannot live without art and beauty (FS is one form I love so much) and they should not be made to feel morally corrupt for watching FS someone uploaded. I am glad people can do this. It means so much to me. I even have asked in threads for IJS teaching! In the end, the lawyers are going to win, and Youtube will be greatly diminished. The people will be losing a great deal. Youtube as become a source of light-art, sport, thought,and activism.So it will be asttacked and reigned in a great deal in the near future. I want to protect the idea, even if sometimes someone runs a foul of copyright infringement. It does so many people a great service. (And there is a lot of dumb stuff there but to each his own I guess).
One more percentage I'll bet MM knows. The six members of the Walton family, heir to Walmart founded by a Christian named Walton (he had standards for his stores-he rolls over continuously daily) own more resources than the bottom 30 percent of America. Do you think that happened fairly, with the ethics the old man first espoused? The corruption that got them to this state of wealth would keep you busy reading/investigating if you could even find most of it documented for the rest of your days and then some. This is just an FS forum, and few will read this post in the little cafe. But every voice in every circumstance may light a fire under someone else. And maybe I'll cut and paste to the political forum I sometimes go to. Thast gets very contentious though, and I do what I can online to make a difference.
I have fouind CBC to meet my world needs for FS fix. Thank you Canada! For the moment, it is a better, freer country. How far the USA has fallen.
The days are coming when many will be forced to fight fire with fire. Very sad to say. Forgive an old American a long, somewhat engential post. Like you all, I have one thing in common, I do and have always loved the art and sport of figureskating. It is sad to see how small a club it is turning into.
Last edited by skateluvr; 04-02-2012 at 09:20 PM.
and... World Peace!
So basically the person who studied, went to school, works hard and produces material is no longer allowed to protect their copyright because of the "freedom" one must have?
yeah CEOs get paid the big bucks for doing almost none if any of the grunt work. Would you also suggest that we put oh... say the entirety of Schindler's List on youtube free of charge? That's a movie that everyone should watch at least once. Or Titanic? I assume you would say yes because Spielberg and Cameron own millions of dollars and so they don't *need* the money. Ok, fine. What about the "grunt" men - the writers the editors, etc who get a subsidy as well for every ticket sold or DVD bought? Where do they end up in your scheme.
Same goes for the tv networks... yeah the men and women in charge of the cable channels (no commercials, you may find me completely too young, but I recall being bombarded by commercials on the disney channel growing up - cable - as well as nikelodeon and MTV among other channels) they get money more than you or I make, and it seems unfair when they take away your "free" entertainment. But the gruntmen don't get paid the way they do. It's also unfair to these companies - no matter how big and how much money they have - to have to pay through the nose to bring you your "free" entertainment. Commercials keep the cost down to you the consumer. Yes, in part to that big bad government who continues to tax the crap out of companies AND the people.
Do I think they can give us a break and allow older stuff in, sure. I think that'd be great for them, and it is short sighted that they don't. However, I do not go out of my way to go against the copyright either. And before you think I'm that hardnosed wench that reports them, I don't do that either. I have enough to do in life than play stupid games.
I am not even sure how my job with dog mushers even comes into place - and no I am not a blogger - I do allow my work to go to them free of charge (and some of the races) but that is contracted well in advance and I get a lot of perks from it that I personally enjoy, I get shots that I can turn around and sell, but that is not my bread and butter. I have to work a "real job" to have steady cash. I am a portrait and wedding photographer mainly, and yes I know I can't make a living off of it. That's a dream, but it's shortsighted to think I don't need to at least partner with another group (which I have) to make sure I can feed and clothe myself. Again, I don't think it's anyone else's job to make it more fair and easy for me to just go out and do that. I'm ok with working hard, and I'm not going to sit there and look at those "more fortunate" or "in charge" and want them taken down a peg. And I certainly will not infringe on their rights to protect their property.
You seem angry Toni, and I know I am dealing with ideology and politics radically different than mine. Much of what I said you seem to take out of context, I was merely interested in your photography (subject matter) since I read initial posts you had something to do with dog mushing, Idtarod. I thought you were getting a job as a blogger, as I said, I did not read your job thread. The govt is indeed big and bad. I agree with that. I still got the feeling that though several people tiptoed around your feeling as you are a strong personality and a mod, that most see no real harm in the FS on youtube and we are happy it's there.
As I said, the efforts to take it down via copyright infringemnet laws is about something much bigger, and more sinister by far. Youtube is a news source, a people's record of what happened during the days of Occupy, the first stirrings of revolution in this country. Youtube is far more than entertainment. It is one way the hactivist group called Anonymous tries to reach the public. It isn't really a group, more a collective. They break the law, have done some dumb things that don't matter ( Taking down Sony's Website over soem playstation issue-there are many bright kids with hacker skills I guess) but Youtube is used by whistleblowers. The "freedom" is essential, also the anonymity of the internet. Youtube has changed and is in flux. I hope to research a little more to understand it better. Maybe a thread in the politics folder. I'm sorry you can't make a living with the photography of weddings and portraits. At one time people could do this, but technology has changed everything so rapidly, we cannot understand our world.
Best of luck with your photography endeavours. Time to move on (me I mean).
Don't use it if some copyright infringement issues bother you. The day may come where you cannot work, cannot afford much, and have the internet to connect you to the world. As I said. Jean Valjean went to prison for a loaf of bread. Revolution is coming to this country, all is accelerated. All is fair in love and war, rules get broken every day. Moral issues are relevant to age, culture, religion. All is in flux such as never before.
I think ultimately we answer to One Higher power, who looks at our deeds in the context of our lives, when we live etc. I just got the feeling that you put words in my mouth. "All should be free." Never said that. And there is much more to get wadded about than what you see/ feel at this moment. Some people care about what affects them, some about all. I am a social worker/decide which type I am. I will not be made to feel bad about watching FS on Youtube. We use it all the time in discussion, You included, posting links. I think Doris made her point by posting the dance thread links. It is natural to be defensive when you might perceive you are in the minority view. If I am wrong, post a poll about whether people feel it is breaking the law to post (and by definition watch-supporting "criminals?') FS vids to youtube. I think you will get a lot of rsponses like mine. There is a world of corporate crime happening daily. That's worth getting very angry about.
I have no idea what the laws are in other countries? Does anyone? When does it cross borders and become "international crime" so to speak? I guess every country has laws about media usage, piracy, sharing. An interesting question if we have any intl posters reading the discussion.
Last edited by skateluvr; 04-02-2012 at 10:13 PM.
Yes, videos are being taken down, but the people who are posting them are getting clever. Take a look at the video of Jeremy's freeskate at Worlds.
Look at the title. It says "2012 W Jeremy Abbott LP FR2". It doesn't say "Worlds" it just says "W". It doesn't say "freeskate", it says "LP FR2". A censor looking for videos to take down would have a hard time searching for this one.
Also, it's possible to post an "unlisted" video that cannot be searched. Of course, somebody has to give you the URL.
Wicked Yankee Girl
Not on youtube.
Google runs a content checker which checks the music against music registered as copyrighted, and another program checks for copyrighted video. It doesn't need to use the titles of videos, although in some cases those who own the copyright might do so.
Example. Christmas before last, my grandson, 11 years old, and playing guitar and singing in his basement, posted a cover of John Lennon's "So This is Christmas" as a Christmas card to friends. Youtube warned him about copyright issues, and he had to take the video down.