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Thread: Men Free Skates

  1. #1126
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Reputation judging or what Mathman said "Corridor Judging"?
    Then that's how they gave him the unprecedented high scores last year?

  2. #1127
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    If Patrick did not receive -1 deduction at 4CC and Daisuke did not receive -1 deduction at the Worlds, then Hanyu should not have gotten -1 deduction at COR, either. And even if he did get -1 deduction, he still should have beaten Javier because Javier was very overmarked on PCS―Javier should not have outscored Hanyu by 3.79 points on PCS. It should have been the other way around. Hanyu should have outscored Javier by at least 3.79 points on PCS.
    Actually Hanyu's almost identical "fall" in the FS at CoR received -1 deduction. The panel did notice that time. Both "falls" received ONLY -2.57 GOE. In most cases, a "fall" is penalized more harshly. Considering the extremely narrow gap with Fernandez, there's no doubt the judges "favored" Hanyu in order to give the ticket to GPF. If Hanyu could make GPF with the 2nd place and Fernandez needed to win, the results could be different. Takahashi and Chan are often treated generously as well. We can say that Hanyu is now close to their favorite position.

    I think Hanyu is "overhyped" as same as Patrick Chan of four years ago (Hanyu is far superior though). Chan was overmarked because he was the hope of the Olympic host countery. Hanyu will be overmarked because the ISU and the judges need Chan's serious rival. The results at Nice comfirmed that.

    The season is not over yet. WTT in Tokyo is still left. Hanyu will be there as the #1 rival of Patrick Chan. Huge scores are expected (if Hanyu skates well).

  3. #1128
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    Just wondering, is it because the sport is figure skating that people are so shocked by athletes getting booed? Talented athletes in other sports are booed all the time, ie basketball. I mean Lakers' fans boo their own team all the time, not just opposing teams. I saw only tv versions of the medal ceremony and no fancams yet, but from the tv versions it didn't sound so much like booing just more like loud noise. Was it that more audible live or on other live streams? How is the crowd's reaction different from all the fighting about Dai and Chan? The way I view it is that we are just booing these skaters behind their backs and some people sure do meaner things than just boo them...
    Politeness and good manners are a part of figure skating, at least on surface. Everything important happens behind a locked door.

    The audience have no choice but to boo because the judges hide themselves in anonymity. The judge panel should hold a press conference after each competition like the medalists if they have confidence in their decisions instead of using competitors as their shield.

    Or, if Chan doesn't like being booed, he'd better tell the judges "hey, you do something, it's not my fault." Well, if he has the guts to do that.

  4. #1129
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Well, these are the scores he received at 4CC with a nearly clean skate: PE 9.04, CH 9.11, IN 8.96. And these are the scores he received at the Worlds with more visible errors including a fall: PE 9.00, CH 8.96, IN 9.21. Has Chan improved significantly in his presentation since 4CC? I bet, in terms of giving more of his emotionless poker face. Poker Face = ???
    Such comparason between competitions, especially when people use this comparason to surport their claim in split-hair fashion, is incomparable and insurportable.

    If I were the judge, I'd have given Patrick less in PE and IN than Dai in this particular competition. However, if you give Chan PE = 8.50 and IN = 8.00, it'll take off 1.71 from his PCS. His PCS would have been 88.43. And his total score would have been 174.99. He will still be #1 in LP.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Now, this is in my opinion a perfect balance between artistry and technical difficulty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZKX--skJTI. Who is that skater???? I would give him an Olympic medal right now. So beautifully skated, with heart and soul!!! Did the audience give him a standing ovation? What a brilliant skater!!! If Michel Kwan is the goddess of the ladies, that skater is the god of the men.
    This show program is the best show program ever from Patrick. I love it! He has expressed every beat of that music. It proved what many people close to him said about his superior artistry.

    But this can't be competition program under any system, not under CoP, not even under 6.0. It can't be called a sport if it is. So enjoy his beautiful skating like this in shows. There are some serious things to do in competitions.

  5. #1130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Such comparason between competitions, especially when people use this comparason to surport their claim in split-hair fashion, is incomparable and insurportable.

    If I were the judge, I'd have given Patrick less in PE and IN than Dai in this particular competition. However, if you give Chan PE = 8.50 and IN = 8.00, it'll take off 1.71 from his PCS. His PCS would have been 88.43. And his total score would have been 174.99. He will still be #1 in LP.

    That's 2X1.71=3.42

  6. #1131
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    Re being booed, just remember no one kicks a dead dog. I only wish I had the chance being booed!

  7. #1132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    That's 2X1.71=3.42
    Right, sorry. It's LP. So his PCS will be 86.72. He won LP PCS. His total will be 173.28. He will be third in LP. His total SP + LP = 262.69. Patrick won gold medal. Satisfied on both sides!
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-02-2012 at 10:01 AM.

  8. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    So his PCS will be 86.72. He won LP PCS. His total will be 173.28. He will be third in LP. His total SP + LP = 262.69. Patrick won gold medal. Satisfied!
    8.96 CH for that flawed, off-tempo performance? Movements structured to match the phrasing of the music are also part of the scoring criteria for that category. I would have taken some points off his CH as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    But this can't be competition program under any system...It can't be called a sport if it is.
    Why not? Dai demonstrated his ability of combining both artistry and technical skills that day, whereas Chan showed difficulty in doing so. It can't be called a sport if the winner is largely predetermined even if he fails to deliver.

  9. #1134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    But this can't be competition program under any system, not under CoP, not even under 6.0. It can't be called a sport if it is....There are some serious things to do in competitions.
    I wish I had some magic power to reverse that way of looking at it. Basically what you are saying is that rotating in the air is "serious figure skating" and skating expressively, using jumps to highlight the choreography, is "not serious figure skating."

    Look at the landings of Patrick's jumps in the exhibition. That is what skaters should strive for every time they jump, and that is what the scoring system should reward. It is not easy. It is not fluff. That smooth, flowing edge is the sport's heart, not its appendix.

    Can it be done? John Curry's 1976 Olympics LP comes close. Curry did all the jumps that men were doing in those days, but never forgot that this was a skating competition.

    Anyway, Patrick said at the beginning of the season that this year he intended to work on his artistic expression. We can see that this commitment paid off. The only problem is, if his performances now deserve 10s in the artistic marks, then we will have to revise the CoP in years to come when he gets even better.

  10. #1135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I wish I had some magic power to reverse that way of looking at it. Basically what you are saying is that rotating in the air is "serious figure skating" and skating expressively, using jumps to highlight the choreography, is "not serious figure skating."

    Look at the landings of Patrick's jumps in the exhibition. That is what skaters should strive for every time they jump, and that is what the scoring system should reward. It is not easy. It is not fluff. That smooth, flowing edge is the sport's heart, not its appendix.

    Can it be done? John Curry's 1976 Olympics LP comes close. Curry did all the jumps that men were doing in those days, but never forgot that this was a skating competition.

    Anyway, Patrick said at the beginning of the season that this year he intended to work on his artistic expression. We can see that this commitment paid off. The only problem is, if his performances now deserve 10s in the artistic marks, then we will have to revise the CoP in years to come when he gets even better.
    But those are not BIG jumps so it's easy to land like that. In fact Patrick was able to do it when he was 17. Just check his ex numbers like Yesterday and Time to Say Goodbye.

    Plus, I don't think Patrck will win if he skates like JC. Not much upper body movement, no change of the center of gravity of the body.
    Last edited by Boeing787; 04-02-2012 at 10:42 AM.

  11. #1136
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    8.96 CH for that flawed, off-tempo performance? Movements structured to match the phrasing of the music are also part of the scoring criteria for that category. I would have taken some points off his CH as well.
    Don't push it! If I were the judge - obviously I couldn't be a judge because I don't know enough - that was all I was willing to deduct from a perfect mark of 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Why not? Dai demonstrated his ability of combining both artistry and technical skills that day, whereas Chan showed difficulty in doing so. It can't be called a sport if the winner is largely predetermined even if he fails to deliver.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I wish I had some magic power to reverse that way of looking at it. Basically what you are saying is that rotating in the air is "serious figure skating" and skating expressively, using jumps to highlight the choreography, is "not serious figure skating."

    Look at the landings of Patrick's jumps in the exhibition. That is what skaters should strive for every time they jump, and that is what the scoring system should reward. It is not easy. It is not fluff. That smooth, flowing edge is the sport's heart, not its appendix.

    Can it be done? John Curry's 1976 Olympics LP comes close. Curry did all the jumps that men were doing in those days, but never forgot that this was a skating competition.

    Anyway, Patrick said at the beginning of the season that this year he intended to work on his artistic expression. We can see that this commitment paid off. The only problem is, if his performances now deserve 10s in the artistic marks, then we will have to revise the CoP in years to come when he gets even better.
    Depends on what you consider as "technical". There are two kinds of technical skills. I think the technical ability of skating skills alone cannot be called "sport". It is purely a technic of figure skating although it definitely envolves physical abilities, like figures, and what was valued the most back in 1970s. That was why figure skating was in danger as an Olympic sport. There are technics in the name of sport, which is purely athletic abilities, such as the revolutions one could rotate in the air. What a sport should keep and push and value the most is the athletic abilities. Combining with the pure, perfect figure skating abilities, it'll be the ultimate perfection.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-02-2012 at 10:46 AM.

  12. #1137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Ten years from now, I'm sure people will be watching Yuzuru's and Dai's FS performances, not Chan's uninspiring, boring performance with a "freaky mistake"(Chan's personal mark in his programs according to him).
    We don't have to wait for 10 years to check it up. It's all out there in the Universe Internet- who is the most viewed skater, and by a huge gap: Eurosport (youtube channel frida340): Dai-1,941 views, Chan- 972 views; RaiSport-2 (youtube channel LaRiservaNice2012): Dai- 14,870 views, Chan- 7, 796 views; France-2 (youtube channel MsGaoz): Dai- 1,161 views, Chan-575 views; Fuji TV (youtube channel icechannel2011): Dai- 32,688 views, Chan- 16, 257 views, etc. I can continue but I think the tendency is pretty clear- regardless of viewers' nationality and/or location, Dai is minimum twice more popular than Chan and therefore he has more chances to hit the Plush LP Euro record of 105,758 views (channnel PlushenkoINFO) than our "true"champion.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666 View Post
    Or, if Chan doesn't like being booed, he'd better tell the judges "hey, you do something, it's not my fault." Well, if he has the guts to do that.
    Oh, no. Here you are enitrely wrong. Chan not doesn't like being booed, he simply doesn't care about the audience with ears wide shut. He also doesn't care about competitors and fair play playing a generous guy who gave them little chances. If it's really what he is thinking (and I think it is), then it must be suck being like that. http://www.thestar.com/sports/articl...g-championship
    Last edited by let`s talk; 04-02-2012 at 12:03 PM.

  13. #1138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    IMO, all his transition movements are similar. I am not an expert, but gkelly did a good job analyzing both programs:
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...t=83079&page=2
    I did read gkelly's (excellent) analysis already, but I still do not see how it demonstrates that all of Daisuke's transitions movements are similar. I see that Patrick has a larger variety of transitional movements, but this doesn't prove that all of Daisuke's movements are similar. As I said earlier, can you provide any specific examples?

    Plus that is an analysis of Daisuke's GPF LP. Pasquale Camerlengo re-choreographed Blues for Klook somewhat between 4CC and Worlds so it would score higher in PCS in areas such as transitions (not like it worked though.....).

  14. #1139
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    I don't see how I can be more specific. He was swinging his arms (sometimes leg), sliding hand(s) across his face most of the time. The center of gravity of body didn't change much in those transition movements. While Patrick had spread eagle, lunge, and little hops. There were also other movements I can't identify.
    Last edited by Boeing787; 04-02-2012 at 01:15 PM.

  15. #1140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    I don't see how I can be more specific. He was swing his arms (sometimes leg), sliding hand(s) across his face most of the time. The center of gravity of body didn't change much in those transition movements. While Patrick had spread eagle, lunge, and little hops. There were also other movements I can't identify.
    And Takahashi skated in slower speed which has helped him tremendously in performance. But speed, speed, speed! And edge, edge, edge! Could anyone skate in Patrick's speed and deep edge, and still maintain the quality performance like what he does? Probably that was what the judges saw and valued the most. The same reason the judges loved Carolina Kostner but many fans hated it.

    Jeremy Abbott could skate the deep edge like Patrick, but he couldn't skate in the same speed like Patrick. Kozula is probably a bit overated in SS. He could skate very smoothly but still not as smooth as Patrick Chan. Also he cannot skate the same speed like his.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-02-2012 at 08:42 PM.

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