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Thread: Men Free Skates

  1. #1216
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    That HUGE 3A-3T got a GOE of 0.14.
    Because the landing wasn't perfect, but that has nothing to do with the energy of the movement itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    Takahashi did a good job interpreting the music, but Patrick was better. He got higher IN marks because his music is more complicated.
    Oh GOD, the horrible "his music is more complicated" argument again. That bad logic train just keeps on going. CHOO CHOO!

  2. #1217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Because the landing wasn't perfect, but that has nothing to do with the energy of the movement itself.



    Oh GOD, the horrible "his music is more complicated" argument again. That bad logic train just keeps on going. CHOO CHOO!
    Then how do you explain Patrick's high IN marks? Eight judges gave him marks >=9.

  3. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    Right, there is no 3A or 4T in this number, because this is a program designed to show off his skating skills, not his jumping ability which has been proved in the competition.
    Hanyu and Dai both proved their 3A and skating skills in competitions too and yet they put ultra elements in exhibition programs. There were more than one world champions who didn't take a rest even at gala. That's what the true champion is for.
    Patrick is the 2012 ISU World Champion, no one can change this fact.
    As well as nobody can change the fact that he got booed by an international audience. The first and up to now the only World Champion in FS who got booed. Guiness record. That matters. At least it should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    Then how do you explain Patrick's high IN marks? Eight judges gave him marks >=9.
    Because he lost seriousliy in BV to both Hanyu and Dai, so PCS should have done the work- to grant him a gold medal. And don't forget the corridor for judges that Lakernik talked about.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    If Takahashi won WC, the JSF could've been in a difficult position -- who should be backed up as THE national favorite heading into Sochi. Well, the international judges have made it clear. I think NHK trophy in Miyagi (Sendai) will be the official ceremony of the throne change.
    I seriously doubt it will happen so soon. Dai is not just a king on the throne. He is an adored brand on the Japanese market. And you can't simply throw cash bringer easily. Hanyu is definitely loved here and will be promoted by J-federation simply because there don't have a megastar to substitue Mao, the second brand, when she retires, presumably after Sochi. So, they do need another megastar beause Dai will retire too after 2014. Hanyu is the best choice possible. But until the brand Dai is on the market, he will stick with the Crown Prince title.

  4. #1219
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    In Business terms, Daisuke is the cash cow while Hanyu is the star of the JFS.

  5. #1220
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    Let's Talk, You are entitled to your opinion, so I won't argue with you any more. Patrick is the champion, that's what I care.

  6. #1221
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    NMURA, your vision of figure skating politics in Japan fascinates me. A couple of questions.

    1. Why is it important to the judges/ISU to get Canada the third spot for men? I mean, the third man in Canada (Ten/Rogozine/Balde) will placed behind the what, 13th man in the USA (Dornbush vs Ten at 4CC)? And if it wasn't important to get Canada the third spot for men's at the Olympics (recalling that Chan and Chipeur were 2nd and 12th respectively, just one point shy), why is it important now for Worlds?

    2. While Hanyu's jump from 7th to 3rd is certainly remarkable, wouldn't the fact that he was 7th in the SP be cause for concern? Hanyu had a flawed short program at Japanese Nationals as well. Why would the judges annoint someone who isn't even guaranteed to make the final group as Chan's main rival?

    3. I, too, am fascinated by who gets NHK (and the other GPs in all disciplines) next season.

    4. Blades, do you think this was Dai at his expressive best? Because I actually thought he was a little more focused throughout the program on nailing all the elements.

  7. #1222
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It's important to Canada to have as many Canadians as possible qualified for Worlds next year in London, Ontario.

    He was elected the Vice President for figure skating at the 2002 ISU Congress and was re-elected in 2006.[6][7] He has become known as a strong supporter of Ottavio Cinquanta's policies, such as the adoption of the ISU Judging System and keeping the identity of figure skating judges secret.
    So if we are going to construct a conspiracy theory, this would be the theory:

    David Dore, former head of Skate Canada, is an ISU bigwig, and considered next in line to Speedy.

    So what Dore wants, and what Canada wants, they might well be likely to get these days, provided it doesn't interfere with what Speedy/ Italy wants, of course.

  8. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    It's important to Canada to have as many Canadians as possible qualified for Worlds next year in London, Ontario.



    So if we are going to construct a conspiracy theory, this would be the theory:

    David Dore, former head of Skate Canada, is an ISU bigwig, and considered next in line to Speedy.

    So what Dore wants, and what Canada wants, they might well be likely to get these days, provided it doesn't interfere with what Speedy/ Italy wants, of course.
    Yeah right! Then Caro shouldn't wait for 10 years to get her world title.

  9. #1224
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    That's what the true champion is for.
    A true figure skating champion in my mind is one who demonstrates exceptional techniques and artistry in the competitive program. Chan's jumps were great in the competition, and so was his artistry in the gala, but he didn't show us together in the competitive program like Dai did.

  10. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    A true figure skating champion in my mind is one who demonstrates exceptional techniques and artistry in the competitive program. Chan's jumps were great in the competition, and so was his artistry in the gala, but he didn't show us together in the competitive program like Dai did.
    For me, Takahashi's FS was boring. Why? It seems as though he has a limited repertoire of style and his programs all look same-ish, from facial expression, gesture to his costumes, even the color is almost always predominantly black in the last few years. Obviously, many don't agree with this take because some even find his skate to be "orgasmic" which defies my comprehension but maybe that's just me. Chan didn't skate very well either and it is true he was tense in his FS, despite landing most of his jumps. Other than the botched 2A being sensationalized and blown out of proportion, it's real stretch to suggest he skated particularly poorly when he only had one other minor error besides that and no one in top 10 skated clean based on the number of negative GOE and deduction for falling each skater received. Setting aside whose program is more "interesting or boring", which is inherently subjective, it shouldn't be a surprise that Chan who beat Takahashi by 30 points just a month ago at 4CC can still beat Takahashi by 6 points given a closer contest, without rehearsing every single point of comparison which been dissected to the atomic level already.

    Neither man skated particularly well in this competition, nor did the 3rd place finisher. But it is to be expected that the Takahashi fan club will continue to cry foul until who knows when.

  11. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    For me, Takahashi's FS was boring. Why? It seems as though he has a limited repertoire of style and his programs all look same-ish, from facial expression, gesture to his costumes, even the color is almost always predominantly black in the last few years. Obviously, many don't agree with this take because some even find his skate to be "orgasmic" which defies my comprehension but maybe that's just me.
    No, it's not just you, count me in. I will leave out the costume part, though. He used to wear some pinkish top.

  12. #1227
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    Still discrediting Chan's win here, eh? I can't, and won't attempt to, change the closed minds but I do have another observation regarding live and remote audiences' emotional but irrational responses: the later an error is, the more impact it has on the perception of the merits of the program and the competition even though it makes no difference in actual scoring. Takahash's major error occurred at the the early part of the SP and was totally forgotten and ignored at the end of the LP/competition. So was Hanyu's low ranking SP. In Pairs, V/T won the LP and almost won the Gold medal in a virtual tie. If they did win in a virtual tie, would they be booed and their awkward awful fall in the Death Spiral during the SP be held against them? Chan's awkward awful fall happened late to his lowest value jump, when his win had already been secured barring an unlikely awkward awful fall in the footwork, but is used to discredit his win and his superior skating skills unendingly.

    Or, I may be wrong; it has nothing to do with the timing of the mistake but has everything to do with Chan simply handing his gleeful distractors an ammunition for disparaging him. Still, it should not and did not cost him a win and another rightful title.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 04-06-2012 at 12:54 PM.

  13. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    As well as nobody can change the fact that he got booed by an international audience. The first and up to now the only World Champion in FS who got booed. Guiness record. That matters. At least it should.
    FWIW, I doubt he was the only one. Skating has it fair share of unpopular decisions by judges. I'd bet Fusar-Poli/Margalio over Anisina/Peizerat was not especially welcomed by general audience, and Krylova/Ovsyannikov over Anissina/Peizerat in Helsninki-1999 was definitely not. I also remember a lot of booing then a flawed performance by Berezhnaya/Sikhaurlidze beat clean Shen/Zhao, but I am not sure if it was WC or not. Ditto for Totmyanina/Marinin vs. Shen/Zhao, at very least in Dortmund (S/Z won the LP, but were 4th in the SP, so they had to settle for silver, despite being quite magical that night).

    Besides, I believe the reason for the booes was the fact that up till Patrick's skate Joubert was ranked third. The moment his marks were announced Joubert was kicked off the podium. So unless you are suggesting that he should have finished behind Joubert in overall classification (which, of course, you are perfectly free to do), there was no judges' decisions re. his placement in the LP, which would not have produced the same reaction.

  14. #1229
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    I dont know why people are still discreditting Chan's win. His skating skills are superior to Daisuke, he has better flow and is far more efficient in stroking. I do think his body movements were very in line with the music and in a way more difficult than Daisuke's, D is more exciting because he jiggles more and has more movements but that is not artistry per se. Patrick seems to have improved the lyrical quality to his upper body movements and does come across as a dacner far more. I think people like to make a conspiracy out of things and claiming the judges are biased etc etc, but it is quite a unanimous result. Also, people like to keep pointing out the fall on the last axel, but that's the whole point of the COP and using marks to determine placings. He should have won with a more decisive margin without the fall. Landing two quads is still a remarkable feat.

  15. #1230
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Dai is not just a king on the throne. He is an adored brand on the Japanese market. And you can't simply throw cash bringer easily. Hanyu is definitely loved here and will be promoted by J-federation simply because there don't have a megastar to substitue Mao, the second brand, when she retires, presumably after Sochi. So, they do need another megastar beause Dai will retire too after 2014. Hanyu is the best choice possible. But until the brand Dai is on the market, he will stick with the Crown Prince title.
    In Japan, Takahashi is certainly more famous than Hanyu and he's heavily favored by the JSF simply because he was the best shot at world/olympic medals.. But the international judges seem to have little trust in Takahashi anymore. The results at WC (almost perfect Takahashi <= Hanyu w/ one fall) has proven that the ISU is going to promote Hanyu thereafter. Even the JSF should know Takahashi's brand is falling in its value. They don't have much choice.

    I say, rather Hanyu is the star of the ISU. Probably the JSF officials have not expected Hanyu to medal this year, especially after the SP. They had planned to promote Takahashi at least until 2013 worlds, and if all things go well, Hanyu could be the #2 man at Sochi, who has the outside shot at a medal if Takahashi falters. The ISU is urging the JSF to rethink and speed up the plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Why is it important to the judges/ISU to get Canada the third spot for men? I mean, the third man in Canada (Ten/Rogozine/Balde) will placed behind the what, 13th man in the USA (Dornbush vs Ten at 4CC)? And if it wasn't important to get Canada the third spot for men's at the Olympics (recalling that Chan and Chipeur were 2nd and 12th respectively, just one point shy), why is it important now for Worlds?
    Giving three spots to the next year's host is desirable but not the highest priority for the international judges. If they could do it without much difficulty, very few people will complain. I think their reluctance to treat Takahashi as "Chan's rival" is the more important reason.
    Last edited by NMURA; 04-06-2012 at 02:28 PM.

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