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yuki

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Chan's PCS is inconsequential to him defeating all other skaters. For the sake of argument, your claim is true, judges should have lowered his PCS a little more due to a fall which knocked him out for about 4 seconds, what other errors do you feel should have also lowered his PCS given that you said errors?

He was behind the music at times. He even admitted that he made the mistake on the 2A because he was rushing to catch up with the music. At least his PE (9.00) and his IN (9.21) should have been lower, especially compared to Takahashi. Actually, last year his PE and IN were not much higher for a visibly better performance. I'm not arguing his win here, as you seem to think I'm doing. I just wish he had been scored more accurately to what he actually did.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Let me ask this, which part of his skate shows he is madly in love (with Juliet) even without her being there? Can you find us that part? I certainly can't.

First of all, your entire premise is off-base for which you are judging. Hanyu is skating to music, he is not acting out the entirety of a play. What's important is that he is interpreting the music we hear, not your vision of what Romeo should be in Shakespeare's play. Your attempt to dismiss Hanyu's performance based upon his costume ("not looking like Romeo") is laughable at best and shows your poor understanding of what is being conveyed in this program.

As for displaying the emotion of love, that is something which Hanyu engages in and does very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA2Ks3osTS0#t=2m07s

The way he softly caresses with his arms and hands, and transmits that quality through his puppy-dog facial expression, is a beautiful interpretation of this section of the music. And look at the way he holds his arms and hands after that 3Lutz-2Toe. He takes a jump that was slightly off-center and turns it into a gorgeous moment of vulnerability and understanding.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
*Edit:

I realized someone posted this video already. The EuroSport commentators are often quite neutral, and non-bias. I think Daisuke was seriously robbed.....
But life goes on, his ultimate goal is Sochi, and this is just preparation for the Olympic games.

Well, no, they are not neutral. These two guys have a strong preference for the dramatic. Also, they have long had a discomfort with Patrick Chan - not hatred, just discomfort. In past World Championships, they have said Chan seems to miss something and they couldn't quite pin point what exactly he is missing, despite clean skate. In another case, they felt Chan was skating without much emotions. The bottom line, Patrick Chan is not their cup of tea and this is no secret.

What's hilarious is they took it up a notch this time and suggested that ISU should investigate these results, on what basis? Chan bribing the judges or maybe Skate Canada threatened the judges? When it comes to $ or funding, nobody can compete against JSF and the huge number of major ISU sponsors which are full of Japanese corporations. So if it's not money or cheating, what should the ISU investigate? Finally, Takahashi is shown to have made at least 5 technical errors in his elements for both SP and LP combined. If any judge or any official were to defend their decision, this is like a piece of cake. Takahashi gave others way too many ammunition to build a case against him with all those errors, 3 of which resulted in overall negative GOE and 2 of which, near zero GOE, all are errors regardless. Compared to Chan's 3 and Hanyu's 2, all one had to do in an inquiry: "Skater A made more mistakes than Skater B, I went with the Skater who made less errors". Done. That's how hillarious the two Eurosport guys are, they seriously don't know what they are talking about but supposedly, they are veterans in the sport like many other commentators but if you count how often they erred while commenting, you have to seriously question the truthfulness of their credentials. I am being serious here, it's mind boggling how much errors commentators make.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
British Eurosport Versions

Takahashi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOlX...DvjVQa1PpcFM74CdB5xxTpM3srTItlfzTnPQnFzQmxmk=

Hanyu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0RB...DvjVQa1PpcFM74CdB5xxTpNy7vcn4vGRVk8u0pHqtG4A=

Closing Comments for the Men's FS
Interesting comments by the commentators. Are either of them current coaches? Just want to know how reliable their comments are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m7x...DvjVQa1PpcFM74CdB5xxTpLCbEEpnSIyfqcNiEAPZF80=

These are all that I can find for now.

This Chris guy, before Patrick's score came out, he said Patrick might just get away with it(the gold). After seeing the score, he changed his tune to "Takahashi surely deserved the gold".

My opinion: Patrick's LP might be overscored, but not much. He still deserves the gold especially considering Dai didn't get the one point deduction for his fall in SP and Hanyu only got one point deduction for his fall in steps but not GOE deduction.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Wally Lutz, you keep on saying PCS are not the issues. But PCS was the major difference between Chan and Dai in the long, so it absolutely IS the issue. Lets say we give Chan higher SS and Choregraphy than Dai. Okay, but did Chan really perform and execute better than Dai in that long. Nope, and we have an entire audience to say no.

Did chan really have much greater interpertation when Chan fell behind his music. Nope. If Patrick and Dai had similar PCS than Patrick won due to the short, I think people could have lived with it. But that's not what happened its the close to five point lead on PCS that have people up in arms.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Finally, Takahashi is shown to have made at least 5 technical errors in his elements for both SP and LP combined.

Any skater getting less than +3 GOE on an element could be considered "an error", with the ridiculous way you are attempting to twist it around.

Takahashi made a mistake in the SP and that was it. His LP had a few jumps that were "less than perfect" but nonetheless were essentially clean. I wouldn't have given him any -GOE in that performance and his last 3Flip should not have been called as < either. Patrick Chan made much larger mistakes that cost him a lot of points and disrupted the performance.

Yet again - if you reverse the PCS that Chan and Takahashi received (so I won't even take into consideration the wrong calls Takahashi received), which is what almost everyone is saying would be the ACCURATE scoring of this competition, then Takahashi is the World Champion by a comfortable margin.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA2Ks3osTS0#t=2m07s

The way he softly caresses with his arms and hands, and transmits that quality through his puppy-dog facial expression, is a beautiful interpretation of this section of the music. And look at the way he holds his arms and hands after that 3Lutz-2Toe. He takes a jump that was slightly off-center and turns it into a gorgeous moment of vulnerability and understanding.

Sorry, I see none of what you described above. He is not soft, in fact rather stiff if not stunned facial expression. What puppy-dog? That's like a deer stunned by red lights. You are seeing and reading emotions on Hanyu when none exists. Please forgive the judges and many of us who don't share your crush on this school boy.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
He was behind the music at times. He even admitted that he made the mistake on the 2A because he was rushing to catch up with the music. At least his PE (9.00) and his IN (9.21) should have been lower, especially compared to Takahashi. Actually, last year his PE and IN were not much higher for a visibly better performance. I'm not arguing his win here, as you seem to think I'm doing. I just wish he had been scored more accurately to what he actually did.

As confusing as this may sound, I am actually agreeing with you. Would I have given Chan 9s for PE or IN, no, I wouldn't. Earlier, I have also stated that the PCS of this competition is rather "curious", it was a polite way for me to say that I don't entirely agree with the outcomes. That said comparing scores from two different competitions with different judges, let alone one year apart when some rules and trends would have surely changed - is a risky business. I am sure you'd agree it can be like comparing apples and oranges given the different circumstances. Then the only question left is to ask should Takahashi being given higher PE and IN scores? Keep in mind, being behind the music affects mostly PE but not so much the IN. Sure, one can argue that when Chan hit his flying combination spin, he didn't hit while at the music's crescendo but the impact is limited. The trouble is Takahashi had several shaky landings of his own during the LP, which should also lower his PE as well. Whether Chan won by 6 points or 2 points, he still wins. Maybe, the scoring of the PCS was questionable, just keep in mind, judges are humans too, they get nervous and no one is perfect. So long as the end result is correct, does it really matter?
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Wally Lutz, you keep on saying PCS are not the issues. But PCS was the major difference between Chan and Dai in the long, so it absolutely IS the issue. Lets say we give Chan higher SS and Choregraphy than Dai. Okay, but did Chan really perform and execute better than Dai in that long. Nope, and we have an entire audience to say no.

We have gone over this before, for the nth time, this is not American Idol nor People's Choice Award or else Joubert would have won the World Championship here.

Did chan really have much greater interpertation when Chan fell behind his music. Nope. If Patrick and Dai had similar PCS than Patrick won due to the short, I think people could have lived with it. But that's not what happened its the close to five point lead on PCS that have people up in arms.

Most of 4.5 points lead in PCS comes from the first two components, SS and TR. The contributions of PE, IN and CH are fairly limited, barely significant. My earlier post has already demonstrated that mathematically, I am not going to repeat myself.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Sorry, I see none of what you described above. You are seeing and reading emotions on Hanyu when none exists.

Nope. It's all there, you're just blind. Trying to degrade my assessment as a "crush on this school boy" is yet another example of how desperately ignorant you are and also how biased you are. Why do you call Hanyu a "school boy"? What does his age have to do with the quality of his skating? Everything you say is a big pile of nonsense, in an attempt to defend your Canadian pride.

Why do you think everyone has responded so strongly to Hanyu? Audiences everywhere and every commentator in the World gushes over him. YOU are the one who is failing to see the performance correctly and grasp it, not everyone else.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
As confusing as this may sound, I am actually agreeing with you. Would I have given Chan 9s for PE or IN, no, I wouldn't. Earlier, I have also stated that the PCS of this competition is rather "curious", it was a polite way for me to say that I don't entirely agree with the outcomes. That said comparing scores from two different competitions with different judges, let alone one year apart when some rules and trends would have surely changed - is a risky business. I am sure you'd agree it can be like comparing apples and oranges given the different circumstances. Then the only question left is to ask should Takahashi being given higher PE and IN scores? Keep in mind, being behind the music affects mostly PE but not so much the IN. Sure, one can argue that when Chan hit his flying combination spin, he didn't hit while at the music's crescendo but the impact is limited. The trouble is Takahashi had several shaky landings of his own during the LP, which should also lower his PE as well. Whether Chan won by 6 points or 2 points, he still wins. Maybe, the scoring of the PCS was questionable, just keep in mind, judges are humans too, they get nervous and no one is perfect. So long as the end result is correct, does it really matter?

Shaky landings aren't the same as a fall. Some of Dai's jumps weren't plus GOE but they weren't minus GOE either....Chan had a couple of shaky but not minus GOE worthy jumps too.... Nothing about Dai's jumps were disruptive and he didn't omit an entire element.

And I'm sorry 5 point lead on PCS is a huge lead and its more than enough to question it. The issue is the feeling once again that the judges will give it to Chan no matter what he does and what others do. If the judges had let Dai get higher PCS maybe win that long, and Chan still won the short nobody would be really complaining but the 5 point PCS lead (which is fall) says it all to fans.

Both Dai and Chan have their own strengths. I think Hanyu will someday be the best of both. (has a lot of boths good qualities) He's the one I keep on watching over and over again. Needs some maturity sure, but everything is there.
 

FTnoona

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Sorry, I see none of what you described above. He is not soft, in fact rather stiff if not stunned facial expression. What puppy-dog? That's like a deer stunned by red lights. You are seeing and reading emotions on Hanyu when none exists. Please forgive the judges and many of us who don't share your crush on this school boy.

The judges may not have a crush on him but they certainly greatly rewarded what he did. His PCS were pretty high only 2 points behind Takahashi's and 7 behind Chan. He may not be ur cup of tea but the judges seem to like him a bit.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
The judges may not have a crush on him but they certainly greatly rewarded what he did. His PCS were pretty high only 2 points behind Takahashi's and 7 behind Chan. He may not be ur cup of tea but the judges seem to like him a bit.

Perhaps Wally Lutz sees the the threat Hanyu can very well place by Sochi. Presentation wise he's only going to get better. And he already took TES last night with his own error...To be able to perform like that at 16, and have the audience eating out of the palm of your hand (with a fall).
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
The judges may not have a crush on him but they certainly greatly rewarded what he did. His PCS were pretty high only 2 points behind Takahashi's and 7 behind Chan. He may not be ur cup of tea but the judges seem to like him a bit.

You may be right, I may be the odd one out. Hanyu got his highest PCS this season in Nice, whereas for the most part this season, his season trailed the like of Javier Fernandez and others. Based on this, I think it's safe to say his results here still need to be validate/confirm by future competitions to see if the trend is sustainable.
 

FTnoona

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
You may be right, I may be the odd one out. Hanyu got his highest PCS this season in Nice, whereas for the most part this season, his season trailed the like of Javier Fernandez and others. Based on this, I think it's safe to say his results here still need to be validate/confirm by future competitions to see if the trend is sustainable.

Yea that true. Is it possible that he go higher PCS because Javier and the others kinda choked? I do think that when he performance he could look up a bit more instead of straight ahead b/c it makes it look like he is looking down quite a lot. If he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas. It was actually kinda surprising to see his PC's higher than at gpf where hehad no disruptions.
 

yuki

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
As confusing as this may sound, I am actually agreeing with you. Would I have given Chan 9s for PE or IN, no, I wouldn't. Earlier, I have also stated that the PCS of this competition is rather "curious", it was a polite way for me to say that I don't entirely agree with the outcomes. That said comparing scores from two different competitions with different judges, let alone one year apart when some rules and trends would have surely changed - is a risky business. I am sure you'd agree it can be like comparing apples and oranges given the different circumstances. Then the only question left is to ask should Takahashi being given higher PE and IN scores? Keep in mind, being behind the music affects mostly PE but not so much the IN. Sure, one can argue that when Chan hit his flying combination spin, he didn't hit while at the music's crescendo but the impact is limited. The trouble is Takahashi had several shaky landings of his own during the LP, which should also lower his PE as well. Whether Chan won by 6 points or 2 points, he still wins. Maybe, the scoring of the PCS was questionable, just keep in mind, judges are humans too, they get nervous and no one is perfect. So long as the end result is correct, does it really matter?

Of course it matters. His PCS (PE and IN especially, as I said before) were not only in the 9s (except TR), but also the highest of the entire competition and this sends the wrong message to the other skaters, IMO. And Takahashi did deserve higher PCS (I was surprised the score was so low after that performance, to be honest - and this was before Chan even skated).
 
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wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Perhaps Wally Lutz sees the the threat Hanyu can very well place by Sochi. Presentation wise he's only going to get better. And he already took TES last night with his own error.

:rofl:

His "own error" wasn't penalized on an element. Had that happened on an element, his TES would have dropped like a rock and certainly behind Chan and Takahashi's, even if it was just a spin.

Let's say I am batting a rival of Hanyu, I can tell you I am not terribly concerned about his potential, not as far as Sochi is concerned. I am being honest. I think Sochi will not be a coronation of anybody, including Patrick Chan. There are other men whom I see as greater competitors than Hanyu. Plus, the fact that Japan has such a competitive national that you better believe there are least 4 men who can legitimately lay claim on a spot for the Olympic team. If they all skate to their potential, it's hard to say who will necessarily on that team and who won't. Two years is a long time; with Team Japan, I doubt anyone has a secured spot on that team now so it's hard for me to lose sleep over a hypothetical rival who isn't even sure to make it to Sochi yet, no offense intended. You remind me of those people who ridiculed my impression on Elena ILINYKH / Nikita KATSALAPOV two years ago. I pretty much said the same thing about them, then a group of Russian fans smacked me because I was "afraid". Well, well, they are still the #2 Russian team and a long, long, long way from being able to challenge for the podium. They are lucky if they can overtake the #2 Canadian team by the time of Sochi, let alone challenging Gold. I am rarely ever wrong in my assessment, you can search my prediction record here in the last two years, I trust you will find them frightenly accurate.
 

doctor2014

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Dai's spins are no where near Hanyu or Chan's quality. And in terms of quality jumping, Hanyu has just about everyone but Brezina there. I adore Dai, but I can see why he doesn't get the same GOE on his jumps and spins.
Disagree about Brezina’s jumping quality. Yes, he does have big jumps but his break-waist takeoff position has to go before he can be considered a beautiful jumper. I think Hanyu and Oda have good jumping quality in terms of height, distance, takeoff position, air position, and landing with soft knees. Too bad Oda is injured now.
 
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