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Thread: Men Free Skates

  1. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    I know it's COP, but that's one of the problems with the COP system, and one of the reasons the audience was booing tonight. It's also part of the more serious problem of why viewership is declining for figure skating and why t.v. coverage has also been cut. The mainstream networks in the U.S. (eg. NBC, ABC) didn't even cover the Worlds this year.
    NBC is going to give 3 hours to recap worlds on April 8....They actually aired part of the GPF live but they won't even show worlds on the same weekend it happened...Does USN have a claim on this weekend or something....

  2. #932
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    I just watched the medal ceremony and felt so sorry for Patrick, who is another hard working skater just like Daisuke. The people who should have been booed there were Cinquanta and the judges, not Patrick....
    Last edited by carignan; 04-01-2012 at 02:38 AM.

  3. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    What do you mean? I thought Chan is a Canadian. This made me think about 1998 Olympics when Lipinski won gold and Michelle Kwan got silver, some American medias wrote: American beat Chinese.
    It was actually "American beats Kwan"

    Does USN have a claim on this weekend or something....
    USN is owned by NBC (NBC/Universal). The reason figure skating got bumped was it happened the same weekend of a major PGA tournament. Golf gets higher ratings, therefore golf gets the live coverage.

  4. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becki View Post
    Using your argument, Chan shouldn't have won with his falls too, right?
    Chan had one fall not fall(s)

    It's call CoP. It wasn't a major fall, and he lost a mark for it already. The rest of his program just racked up the points very well, and he's a very expressive skater.
    Hanyu's fall was very disruptive as it took him at least 7 seconds to get back into his program, see this timed clip here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA2Ks3osTS0#t=3m9s

    If a skater takes more than 5 seconds to come back into their program, the fall is considered disruptive and should be penalized in the PCS. For comparison, here is Chan's only fall in the competition and watch how quickly he recovers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8Nzn0K7yc4#t=4m35s

    He went down at 4m37s, and got back into his program at 4m41s ~ less than 5 seconds.

    The so called "freaked falls" can happen to best of the skaters. Just because Hanyu fell on a step doesn't mean he is incompetent or his skating skill is poor. For that matter, no one should doubt Chan can't do a Double Axel, something even novice skaters can do because other great skaters like Yu-Na Kim or Joannie Rochette have fallen on that too in show or competition. This is pretty straight forward common sense but of course, if you want to nitpick on something or someone, anything goes, right?

    That said, Hanyu's PCS was unusually high considering the significant disruption in his skate. To me personally, I found his facial expression over the top for his chosen music for example, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA2Ks3osTS0#t=4m27s Watch his face, you can see it's as though he is about to kill someone. That's his personal way of interpreting the music and it's fine. However, it's a fine line between expressive and over the top.

    Should Joubert have won the Bronze, I don't know. I do find the PCS of most skaters yesterday somewhat curious, not just the top 3. It's also a relatively "younger" panel who judged yesterday's men competition, less veterans and mostly from countries with no significant history of figure skating. Maybe that's why they were more cautious about PCS but it's only human. I also knew Chan would win before he even left the ice. It was obvious he had done enough, even though I knew he was behind his music as early as he entered his flying combination spin. Losing 5 points on that Axel really isn't going to break him knowing the kind of score Takahashi got, who had issues of his own (albeit not easily discernable like a fall). I also knew at that time, some people will instantly use this lame error to hold it against Chan even though - I guarantee you, every single of them know it's just a freak error for being human and the element doesn't worth much anyway. As for the blame on the wacky PCS, why didn't someone add the TES from both SP and LP and minus all deductions, ignoring the PCS entirely, you know who still ends up 1st, right?

    Effectively, the World Championship wasn't decided by the PCS because TES alone shows who won this competition. Of course, facts don't matter when they get in the way of some people's irrational logic and emotions and that is to be expected.

  5. #935
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    Just wondering, is it because the sport is figure skating that people are so shocked by athletes getting booed? Talented athletes in other sports are booed all the time, ie basketball. I mean Lakers' fans boo their own team all the time, not just opposing teams. I saw only tv versions of the medal ceremony and no fancams yet, but from the tv versions it didn't sound so much like booing just more like loud noise. Was it that more audible live or on other live streams? How is the crowd's reaction different from all the fighting about Dai and Chan? The way I view it is that we are just booing these skaters behind their backs and some people sure do meaner things than just boo them...
    There was clearly booing during Patrick's interview and the medal cermony on my live feed. When I rewatched the video of the the medal cermony I could not hear the booing.

  6. #936
    Custom Title EricRohmer's Avatar
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    I was impressed by Chan‘s French in the winner interview. lol
    What a smart guy. He is maybe semi-trilingual?

  7. #937
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    I haven't got a chance to post here yet..

    I just finished watching all the mens free programs last night. I feel like some of you do on this board that Daisuke should have won the gold medal, but Chan did skate quite well and I can see why the judges did give him the win. I really wanted Brian Joubert in 3rd, and I thought in general his skate was better than Hanyu's, but what can you do? I hope he sticks around until Sochi though. I know KVDP is probably retiring, so I'm glad he had a good skate here. I'm also glad that Canada got three spots back for the men, I guess Jeremy Ten will probably be making a trip to Worlds next year (or Andrei Rogozine? Elladj Balde?). I was horrified by the abysmal performance of Artur Gachinski after his bronze medal last year. I guess Plushenko will likely be using Russia's one spot for next year's competition.

  8. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyLutz
    For that matter, no one should doubt Chan can't do a Double Axel, something even novice skaters can do because other great skaters like Yu-Na Kim or Joannie Rochette have fallen on that too in show or competition.
    Did anyone say that Chan can't do a double Axel?

    I do not see any controversy here. In this competition Patrick missed his double Axel, got zero points for it, and ended up with 5 fewer points than he would have had otherwise. Just as it should be.

    What would have been wrong is if he had missed the jump but still got some points because, oh well, at least he tried and we know he can do it.

  9. #939
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    Agree Mathman the crowd is dumb and knows nothing about figure skating, the should be grateful they got a medal for their overrated dance team and robbed weaver and poje in the process.

  10. #940
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    Quote Originally Posted by demarinis5 View Post
    There was clearly booing during Patrick's interview and the medal cermony on my live feed.
    You are not the only one:
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...82U0BA20120331
    Quote Originally Posted by romanoff81 View Post
    Agree Mathman the crowd is dumb and knows nothing about figure skating, the should be grateful they got a medal for their overrated dance team and robbed weaver and poje in the process.
    All these repetitive attemps to call everyone who disagrees with Chan's wins as some dumb crowd in fact proves nothing but one thing: insulting unnamed public is the only desperate means of defense left for Chan ubers. Have fun.

  11. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    If we step back i wonder if how childish and silly we all look. First, who really cares about figure skating compared to most sports - sad to say but true. Second, this isn't life or death. Third, do we forget we are dealing with real people with real feelings. Patrick had 1 fall and a deduction for the music issue. But he did 2 quads and a 3 axel along with some great spins and footwork. As has been argued he does COP well Some of the things I think the judges can see but not the average joe or josephine is that he did skate faster than Takahashi, he has wonderful transitions and skating skills and it is not like he killed Hanyu, Takahashi - it was close. Takahahsi skated extremely well and |i like his performance better but if you break down what the judges see I can see what Patrick won. I doubt all these judges could constanatly be wrong. The problem is we don't understand cop We are but mere armchair coaches.
    ^ This.

  12. #942
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    Why no outrage that Hanyu won the FS with a (very disruptive) fall over a clean Takahashi and everybody else?

    BTW, Chan netted -1 for his fall. He got zero for his non executed 2A plus one point penalty. Should a fall after a fully rotated quad be considered equivalent to this fall?

  13. #943
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    Sadly figure skating enthusiasts are destroying their own sport from being on tv or being popular. Yes, COP is complex. People booing is not only inappropriate, childish, rude - like a host making horrible comments to their guests but gives the public the perception skating is corrupt and shouldn't be watched. Even on this board yes free speech is a wonderful thing but don't be surprised folks if it comes back to all us skating enthusiasts. And even us enthusiasts for the most part and I mean the very most part despite what we might think are not the judges and are probably not trained - there are a few I am sure skaters and trained judges out there but I doubt they are at the level of the judges at worlds.

    Patrick had 1 fall but he still landed and nicely in the free two quads and a triple axel. I agree his interpretation doesn't reach out to the audience and I much prefer Dai's routine. But if you forget preference it is still very possible for Chan or the routine you didn't like as much to win. Better example. There is a debate tournament and you really support the pro side ie. smoking should be banned from hospitals. However the negative side you believed were the better debater they technically had the better speech, better repesentation, better cross ex etc. I have no idea why Chan is so villainized. Blame the judges - yes but really go back to that debate example and like it or not one can see how with COP chan could and would win. It's useless arguing this because you can't change a leopard's spots; people have their faves and reasoning. Even presentation, and I said I billion times prefer Dai!!! an introvert style can still score well or even better if they do it well. it is like the debate example I gave. Also PCS aren't solely interpretation.

    I think I hear the people who say why Dai should have won; I guess when the judges broke it down the still scored component for component Chan higher. Like it or not, think back to the Plushy days I guess, TES wise Chan still had some big jumps and even if you want to criticize you don't like his spins or footwork - the number of turns, positons, edges and such on both garner big points- whether you like the moves or not and whether you thought it was attractive or to the music. A quad toe triple toe is still worth a lot of points whether you like where it was placed in the program or not (though it might garner more points if it was placed somewhere more attractive (goe with music or pcs) but it is still worth a lot of point. Doing one underrotated quad is going to score less...

    In fairness yes Hanyu's fall was more disruptive it wasn't horrific; chan's fall was really odd actually but was less disruptive - he go this penalty fall and no points - he paid his speeding ticket so to speak.

    I know I am just an uneducated skating fan. I guess we are no better than football, soccer, baseball, basketball or hockey fans who become so entranced to their team we start making outrageous comments, accusing refs of bias, someone tanking a game etc. Granted skating has another element - judges and it matters how things are done (elements) whereas football soccer did the ball, puck go in - doesn't matter pointed feet or what.

    Listen gang freedom speech is a gift; I may be reading some posts wrong but I do sense more than anger, frustration about the system, judging or sadly skaters - but lets not make this personal. Believe it or not Patrick is someone's kid just as Dai.

    I am really sorry if i offended anyone. I don't want to be seen as an uber fan of Patrick especially - I dislike his brashness and some of the comments whether they be youthful exuberance or what. And I certainly have my own biases but I can see why the judges could pick him. Even if you gave the free to Dai it probably wasn't enough of a win to get gold anyways.

    That's my two bits again though it ain't worth a dime because I really know nothing about skating; just enjoy it. Peace people!!!

  14. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Why no outrage that Hanyu won the FS with a (very disruptive) fall over a clean Takahashi and everybody else?

    BTW, Chan netted -1 for his fall. He got zero for his non executed 2A plus one point penalty. Should a fall after a fully rotated quad be considered equivalent to this fall?
    I actually found Hanyu's 'disruptive fall' very suiting to the choreography for some reason...it was like a fallen Romeo who had to pick himself up and fight for love haha.

    But I still think Daisuke was underscored in the LP, especially in PCs. Perhaps the judges are sending him a message that he needs to work on PCs now? :S Notice Hanyu's PC was 83....only 2 points lower than Daisuke's.

  15. #945
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    BTW, Chan netted -1 for his fall. He got zero for his non executed 2A plus one point penalty. Should a fall after a fully rotated quad be considered equivalent to this fall?
    To me, falls are errors of a more fundamental nature than other skating miscues like underrotation. Skating means gliding along and staying on your feet. If a five-year-old is learning to skate for the first time and can make it from one side of the rink to the other without falling, that is a successful skate. All the rest -- rotatiing in the air, etc. -- are just add-ons.

    What I would rather see is a system that reduces the base value for elements that end in a fall. (The precedent would be the way URs are handled.) To me the issue is not so much what a skater did before he fell, but rather the nature of the fall itself. Maybe something like this.

    Complete prattfall on the ice, 0% of base value.

    Some sort of reasonable attempt at landing the jump, 25% of base value.

    Save landing by hands down, 50% of base value.

    Save landing by teetering and tottering, extra turns, step out, 75% of base value.

    Land on solid running edge, required for 100% base value.

    It is true that rotating in the air and then falling badly shows more skating skill than flubbing the jump altogether. But I think there has to be some sort of floor in the scoring system that says, sorry, that element was not successful.

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