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Thread: Men Free Skates

  1. #961
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    British Eurosport Versions

    Takahashi
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOlXu...nPQnFzQmxmk%3D

    Hanyu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0RBt...k8u0pHqtG4A%3D

    Closing Comments for the Men's FS
    Interesting comments by the commentators. Are either of them current coaches? Just want to know how reliable their comments are.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m7xF...qcNiEAPZF80%3D

    These are all that I can find for now.
    Last edited by FTnoona; 04-01-2012 at 11:30 AM.

  2. #962
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post

    You're making it sound like it's completely extraordinary that he got dinged for an element he didn't do. Since you insist that the panel was not lenient, I'm asking you: what way is there to be lenient on an element that wasn't completed? Should he have gotten the base value for a 2A just because it was, in your words, a "freak fall"?
    You asked the wrong person. The question should be directed at those people who complained Chan won unfairly and there are many of them here. Many also claimed judges were determined to hand the Gold medal to Chan no matter what, hence they are implying the judges ignored or semi-ignored his errors to that end. I looked at the situation and came to the conclusion that the judges applied the rules as they should and were impartial towards Chan and others, therefore, any claim that judges were lenient with Chan wrt to his errors, is simply baseless. You are asking me to show how the judges could have been lenient with him is confusing and pointless given that they weren't and shouldn't except those people who continued to believe they were is no different to those who continue to believe that Earth is flat.
    Last edited by wallylutz; 04-01-2012 at 11:22 AM.

  3. #963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Sadly figure skating enthusiasts are destroying their own sport from being on tv or being popular. Yes, COP is complex. People booing is not only inappropriate, childish, rude - like a host making horrible comments to their guests but gives the public the perception skating is corrupt and shouldn't be watched. Even on this board yes free speech is a wonderful thing but don't be surprised folks if it comes back to all us skating enthusiasts. And even us enthusiasts for the most part and I mean the very most part despite what we might think are not the judges and are probably not trained - there are a few I am sure skaters and trained judges out there but I doubt they are at the level of the judges at worlds.

    Patrick had 1 fall but he still landed and nicely in the free two quads and a triple axel. I agree his interpretation doesn't reach out to the audience and I much prefer Dai's routine. But if you forget preference it is still very possible for Chan or the routine you didn't like as much to win. Better example. There is a debate tournament and you really support the pro side ie. smoking should be banned from hospitals. However the negative side you believed were the better debater they technically had the better speech, better repesentation, better cross ex etc. I have no idea why Chan is so villainized. Blame the judges - yes but really go back to that debate example and like it or not one can see how with COP chan could and would win. It's useless arguing this because you can't change a leopard's spots; people have their faves and reasoning. Even presentation, and I said I billion times prefer Dai!!! an introvert style can still score well or even better if they do it well. it is like the debate example I gave. Also PCS aren't solely interpretation.

    I think I hear the people who say why Dai should have won; I guess when the judges broke it down the still scored component for component Chan higher. Like it or not, think back to the Plushy days I guess, TES wise Chan still had some big jumps and even if you want to criticize you don't like his spins or footwork - the number of turns, positons, edges and such on both garner big points- whether you like the moves or not and whether you thought it was attractive or to the music. A quad toe triple toe is still worth a lot of points whether you like where it was placed in the program or not (though it might garner more points if it was placed somewhere more attractive (goe with music or pcs) but it is still worth a lot of point. Doing one underrotated quad is going to score less...

    In fairness yes Hanyu's fall was more disruptive it wasn't horrific; chan's fall was really odd actually but was less disruptive - he go this penalty fall and no points - he paid his speeding ticket so to speak.

    I know I am just an uneducated skating fan. I guess we are no better than football, soccer, baseball, basketball or hockey fans who become so entranced to their team we start making outrageous comments, accusing refs of bias, someone tanking a game etc. Granted skating has another element - judges and it matters how things are done (elements) whereas football soccer did the ball, puck go in - doesn't matter pointed feet or what.

    Listen gang freedom speech is a gift; I may be reading some posts wrong but I do sense more than anger, frustration about the system, judging or sadly skaters - but lets not make this personal. Believe it or not Patrick is someone's kid just as Dai.

    I am really sorry if i offended anyone. I don't want to be seen as an uber fan of Patrick especially - I dislike his brashness and some of the comments whether they be youthful exuberance or what. And I certainly have my own biases but I can see why the judges could pick him. Even if you gave the free to Dai it probably wasn't enough of a win to get gold anyways.

    That's my two bits again though it ain't worth a dime because I really know nothing about skating; just enjoy it. Peace people!!!
    Thank you for this post. If this happens next year in London (and I mean booing for any skater), I swear I will clobber the booer and probably get arrested. Seriously though, I wish people would just enjoy the skating. So many are projecting their anger onto these athletes when the real source of their unhappiness lies outside of skating or any sport. It's so glass half empty.

  4. #964
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    You asked the wrong person. The question should be directed at those people who complained Chan won unfairly and there are many of them here. Many also claimed judges were determined to hand the Gold medal to Chan no matter what, hence they are implying the judges ignored or semi-ignored his errors to that end. I looked at the situation and came to the conclusion that the judges applied the rules as they should and were impartial towards Chan and others, therefore, any claim that judges were lenient with Chan wrt to his errors, is simply baseless. You are asking me to show how the judges could have been lenient with him is confusing and pointless given that they weren't and shouldn't except those people who continued to believe they were is no different to those who continue to believe that Earth is flat.
    Fair enough. What I actually meant was that there's no way for the panel to be "lenient" on an element that wasn't completed at all, not for Chan and not for anybody else, since it's not a question of lenience (you either did the element or you didn't). As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I only have a problem with Chan's PCS, some of which were a bit generous and did indeed ignore some of his errors. His TES was fine.

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    *Edit:

    I realized someone posted this video already. The EuroSport commentators are often quite neutral, and non-bias. I think Daisuke was seriously robbed.....
    But life goes on, his ultimate goal is Sochi, and this is just preparation for the Olympic games.

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    The reason Patrick Chan's falls are picked on more than other people's is that not only does he win everything--often over someone who doesn't fall--but everyone just carries on and on and on and on and on and on and on--about how great he is. When Evan won in 2009, Scott Hamilton couldn't believe that he had beaten Patrick Chan, who was then AN UNKNOWN TEENAGER, with one win at 4CC under his belt.

    Patrick fell and still beat clean Johnny Weir in the Olympics. There may be reasons for it, but tell the Johnny Weir fans. Patrick's falls are often odd. I mean, not landing a jump or two, OK, but he crashes into walls, falls on footwork, goes off his music--and the announcers, rather than saying, "Tut, tut, not the skate he wanted" like they (mainly Scott) do/does for everybody else, but they make all these excuses. Like "he cares more than anyone else!" "He puts his heart and soul into it!" "His mistakes don't matter because he's the skater's skater." Then he wins, despite these mistakes, but he doesn't squeak by. No, he breaks a record. He's the best skater ever, ever, ever, ever!!! Meanwhile, someone else flutzes or underrotates something and the announcers (again, mainly Scott) are like condemning him/her for really choking.

    Whatever Patrick's weaknesses are don't count. When he couldn't do the quad, well, the quad was out! Transitions were in. Unfortunately, it wasn't Patrick who benefited from this anti-quad sentiment, but Evan, so it all backfired. When Patrick learned the quad, now that's the most important thing. It's almost like someone decided that he's the best, and they will see to it that he wins no matter what.

    The buzz about how wonderful he is and the often tepid and unclean performances that he wins with do not match up. When someone is considered not only the best of their field but the very very best ever ever--and that's how people carry on over him--they'd better deliver or they get booed.

  7. #967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    The reason Patrick Chan's falls are picked on more than other people's is that not only does he win everything--often over someone who doesn't fall--but everyone just carries on and on and on and on and on and on and on--about how great he is. When Evan won in 2009, Scott Hamilton couldn't believe that he had beaten Patrick Chan, who was then AN UNKNOWN TEENAGER, with one win at 4CC under his belt.

    Patrick fell and still beat clean Johnny Weir in the Olympics. There may be reasons for it, but tell the Johnny Weir fans. Patrick's falls are often odd. I mean, not landing a jump or two, OK, but he crashes into walls, falls on footwork, goes off his music--and the announcers, rather than saying, "Tut, tut, not the skate he wanted" like they (mainly Scott) do/does for everybody else, but they make all these excuses. Like "he cares more than anyone else!" "He puts his heart and soul into it!" "His mistakes don't matter because he's the skater's skater." Then he wins, despite these mistakes, but he doesn't squeak by. No, he breaks a record. He's the best skater ever, ever, ever, ever!!! Meanwhile, someone else flutzes or underrotates something and the announcers (again, mainly Scott) are like condemning him/her for really choking.

    Whatever Patrick's weaknesses are don't count. When he couldn't do the quad, well, the quad was out! Transitions were in. Unfortunately, it wasn't Patrick who benefited from this anti-quad sentiment, but Evan, so it all backfired. When Patrick learned the quad, now that's the most important thing. It's almost like someone decided that he's the best, and they will see to it that he wins no matter what.

    The buzz about how wonderful he is and the often tepid and unclean performances that he wins with do not match up. When someone is considered not only the best of their field but the very very best ever ever--and that's how people carry on over him--they'd better deliver or they get booed.
    Exactly my sentiment.
    Although I reflected upon things for a bit today, and I had a different perspective into the whole situation. Maybe, just maybe, that the problem isn't really with Patrick, but with Daisuke, that the judges just do not like him for some reason. Whatever insane marks Patrick has gotten this season only seems ridiculous compared to Dai. I am not particularly into Yuzuru Hanyu and I'm already seeing the judges hyping him up to be the next Patrick. His score was at Patrick Chan level generous and I'm mainly talking about GOE pluses. Somewhere in the process it's Daisuke who gets dinged time after time. Wonder who he's pissed off.

  8. #968
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    Maybe the judges looked at skaters' feet 70% of the time, but only looked at their upper bodies 30% of the time. Whatever the reasons, I think figure skating is the elitest sport. It needs a great deal of effort to narrow down the gap between the skating experts and the general public.

  9. #969
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    Exactly my sentiment.
    Although I reflected upon things for a bit today, and I had a different perspective into the whole situation. Maybe, just maybe, that the problem isn't really with Patrick, but with Daisuke, that the judges just do not like him for some reason. Whatever insane marks Patrick has gotten this season only seems ridiculous compared to Dai. I am not particularly into Yuzuru Hanyu and I'm already seeing the judges hyping him up to be the next Patrick. His score was at Patrick Chan level generous and I'm mainly talking about GOE pluses. Somewhere in the process it's Daisuke who gets dinged time after time. Wonder who he's pissed off.
    Dai's spins are no where near Hanyu or Chan's quality. And in terms of quality jumping, Hanyu has just about everyone but Brezina there. I adore Dai, but I can see why he doesn't get the same GOE on his jumps and spins.

  10. #970
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    That said, Hanyu's PCS was unusually high considering the significant disruption in his skate. To me personally, I found his facial expression over the top for his chosen music for example, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA2Ks3osTS0#t=4m27s Watch his face, you can see it's as though he is about to kill someone. That's his personal way of interpreting the music and it's fine. However, it's a fine line between expressive and over the top.
    This is so wrong, as usual from you. The music is Romeo and Juliet, and that point of the music is building towards a violent climax with emotions of epic proportions. His expression is exactly correct, he is Romeo about to kill Tybalt to avenge the death of his best friend, and then faces exile and separation from his love Juliet. Hanyu's emotional resonance and clarity and commitment is exactly what Patrick Chan is inferior at.

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Effectively, the World Championship wasn't decided by the PCS because TES alone shows who won this competition. Of course, facts don't matter when they get in the way of some people's irrational logic and emotions and that is to be expected.
    "TES alone" does not show who won the competition, as that is never the only score. If that was all that mattered, the PCS would not exist. But they do exist and Patrick Chan was completely overscored on PCS. Takahashi was better in both phases of the competition. If you reverse the PCS that Patrick Chan and Takahashi got, then Takahashi is World Champion by a comfortable margin. Plus, Takahashi received a << call in the SP that should have been only < and then a < call in the LP that shouldn't have been called at all; thus Takahashi's TES should have been higher than Chan's as well.

  11. #971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    This is so wrong, as usual from you. The music is Romeo and Juliet, and that point of the music is building towards a violent climax with emotions of epic proportions. His expression is exactly correct, he is Romeo about to kill Tybalt to avenge the death of his best friend, and then faces exile and separation from his love Juliet. Hanyu's emotional resonance and clarity and commitment is exactly what Patrick Chan is inferior at.
    :lol: Thank you so much. I was about to ask wallylutz if he ever read Romeo and Juliet, watched the movies. Totally appropriate for Hanyu to act that way during that part of the music.

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    Post Analysis of Men's World Championship Scores, Top 5 Men

    Quote Originally Posted by yuki View Post
    As I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I only have a problem with Chan's PCS, some of which were a bit generous and did indeed ignore some of his errors. His TES was fine.
    Chan's PCS is inconsequential to him defeating all other skaters. For the sake of argument, your claim is true, judges should have lowered his PCS a little more due to a fall which knocked him out for about 4 seconds, what other errors do you feel should have also lowered his PCS given that you said errors? There was only one error he made during his SP and LP that had a visible disruption to his performance, all others were technical in nature and did not impact his performance. I think it's important that you get your facts straight to begin with. By definition, an element executed with negative GOE can be considered an error. To be realistic however, an element executed with GOE near zero, even if positive, at the elite level *can* be perceived as an error as it usually implies a less than perfect execution and also because an error doesn't necessarily mean the GOE has to be negative under ISU rules. If we were to use the latter definition, the only error Chan had in his SP was on the 4T while Takahashi also had one error in his SP on the 4T+3T<<. In the LP, Chan had two errors, one on the 3Lz+1Lo+2S combo and the other being the botched 2A. On the other hand, Takahashi made 4 errors during his LP, which are: 4T, 3A+3T, 3Lo, 3F. The numbers don't lie, here is a breakdown of scores for the Top 5 elite men at this Championship:

    Men's World Championship 2012, TES of top 5 men, SP+LP

    1st Patrick Chan: 46.24 + 88.56 = 134.80
    2nd Daisuke Takahashi: 43.43 + 88.16 = 131.59
    3rd Yuzuru Hanyu: 38.68 + 91.99 = 130.67
    5th Florent Amodio: 42.82 + 81.41 = 124.23
    4th Brian Joubert: 44.35 + 79.17 = 123.52



    Men's World Championship 2012, Base value of top 5 men, SP+LP

    2nd Daisuke Takahashi: 39.30 + 79.91 = 119.21
    1st Patrick Chan: 41.40 + 74.11 = 115.51
    5th Florent Amodio: 40.80 + 72.36 = 113.16
    3rd Yuzuru Hanyu: 33.70 + 79.25 = 112.95
    4th Brian Joubert: 41.10 + 71.68 = 112.78



    Men's World Championship 2012, GOE of top 5 men, SP+LP

    1st Patrick Chan: 4.84 + 14.45 = 19.29
    3rd Yuzuru Hanyu: 4.98 + 12.74 = 17.72
    2nd Daisuke Takahashi: 4.13 + 8.25 = 12.38
    5th Florent Amodio: 2.02 + 9.05 = 11.07
    4th Brian Joubert: 3.25 + 7.49 = 10.74



    Men's World Championship 2012, SS+TR components, Top 5 men, SP+LP

    1st Patrick Chan: 17.11 + 35.80 = 52.91
    2nd Daisuke Takahashi: 16.68 + 33.70 = 50.38
    3rd Yuzuru Hanyu: 15.36 + 32.78 = 48.14
    4th Brian Joubert: 15.29 + 32.00 = 47.29
    5th Florent Amodio: 15.00 + 31.86 = 46.86



    Setting aside the more subjective part of the scoring, which are the evaluation on CH, IN and PE, we can see that Chan is 1st in 3 of the 4 categories above. He has the highest TES, GOE and SS+TR, only 2nd in BV due to the missing 2A and a few downgrades on spins and step sequence. On the other hand, while many people perceived Takahashi as having a "clean skate", the numbers tell a different story. The panel awarded Takahashi the highest BV for his work but put him 3rd in terms of GOE, far behind both Hanyu and Chan at barely above Amodio. It begs to ask, why? Were the judges especially generous with Chan on GOE? Looking at the numbers, Hanyu stands at less than 1.5 point away from Chan in terms of GOE but Takahashi trailed Chan by almost 5 points. Looking at Takahashi's SP and LP carefully, he made a total of 5 visible errors in total, for which, each element received some negative GOE from at least one judge and causing the GOE of each of the element to be negative or near 0, ranging from -2.86 to 0.14 That's a lot of errors for someone who aspires to win the World Championship. Hanyu (2 errors) and Chan (3 errors) made much less errors than Takahashi.

    Furthemore, TES on its own correctly predicts the Top 3 standing already, without needing any input from PCS. TES only flips between Joubert and Amodio, by a small margin. However, if we were to add the two technical components of PCS to TES, the result still doesn't change :

    1st Patrick Chan: 134.80 + 52.91 = 187.71
    2nd Daisuke Takahashi: 131.59 + 50.38 = 181.97
    3rd Yuzuru Hanyu: 130.67 + 48.14 = 178.81
    5th Florent Amodio: 124.23 + 46.86 = 171.09
    4th Brian Joubert: 123.52 + 47.29 = 170.81

    Ignoring the more subjective aspects of PCS, the combined technical elements and components scores (70% of overall total Score) strongly support the final result where the Top 3 are correctly placed as is. In other words, the complaints of those fans, including the two male British Eurosport commentators, who are essentially saying Chan's performance wasn't orgasmic to them unlike Takahashi's and therefore, the Japanese Champion should have won Gold, are in fact arguing that their subjectivity should have trumped the athletic aspects of Figure Skating as a sport. But really, 30% of the total score should trump over the rest of the 70%? The final difference in total score is 6.45 between Chan and Takahashi. The difference in total technical elements and components score between the two is 5.74. Quite frankly, it shows as far as Chan and Takahashi are concerned, the other 3 PCS components are inconsequential to the crown because they made almost no difference. One can even argue because Takahashi made more visible errors in the eyes of judges, 5 to 3, he was penalized for having too many little bobbles + a big one in the SP. That's also how Brezina went from 2nd to 6th because he too had too many little bobbles. But one can however make an argument that subjectivity or emotional appeal is what makes Joubert overtaking Amodio in their very close match up based on the numbers presented above - no such argument can be made for the Top 3 however.

    In conclusion, Takahashi's 3rd place finish SP and LP are clearly justifiable when analyzing these numbers in depth. Chan had already soundly defeated Takahashi before any consideration on choreography, interpretation or connection with the audience was given. This is a sport after all and the rightful winner should be the best athlete, not the winner of American Idol on ice or People's Choice award.

  13. #973
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    :lol: Thank you so much. I was about to ask wallylutz if he ever read Romeo and Juliet, watched the movies. Totally appropriate for Hanyu to act that way during that part of the music.
    Thanks for the question, not only I have read the book, I even played the role of Romeo in public as well in theatrical performances when I was about Hanyu's age.

  14. #974
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Thanks for the question, not only I have read the book, I even played the role of Romeo in public as well in theatrical performance when I was about Hanyu's age.
    Than why exactly was Hanyu's facial expressions for that part of the music, ridiculous and over the top. If Hanyu's facial expressions had been like that for the entire performance, I'd agree. But he only had it for one small part of the performance.

  15. #975
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Dai's spins are no where near Hanyu or Chan's quality.
    Dai received more points for his spins in this competition than Chan did. He does not always center his spins as well as Chan, but his big combination spins are faster and he has more positions than Patrick (the Layback in particular).

    Takahashi gave the overall best performance of his entire career in the LP at this World Championships. He lost to a skater who uses airplane arms throughout half of the program, messed up a combination jump, and completely omitted another element, falling.

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