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Thread: Men Free Skates

  1. #991
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    As confusing as this may sound, I am actually agreeing with you. Would I have given Chan 9s for PE or IN, no, I wouldn't. Earlier, I have also stated that the PCS of this competition is rather "curious", it was a polite way for me to say that I don't entirely agree with the outcomes. That said comparing scores from two different competitions with different judges, let alone one year apart when some rules and trends would have surely changed - is a risky business. I am sure you'd agree it can be like comparing apples and oranges given the different circumstances. Then the only question left is to ask should Takahashi being given higher PE and IN scores? Keep in mind, being behind the music affects mostly PE but not so much the IN. Sure, one can argue that when Chan hit his flying combination spin, he didn't hit while at the music's crescendo but the impact is limited. The trouble is Takahashi had several shaky landings of his own during the LP, which should also lower his PE as well. Whether Chan won by 6 points or 2 points, he still wins. Maybe, the scoring of the PCS was questionable, just keep in mind, judges are humans too, they get nervous and no one is perfect. So long as the end result is correct, does it really matter?
    Shaky landings aren't the same as a fall. Some of Dai's jumps weren't plus GOE but they weren't minus GOE either....Chan had a couple of shaky but not minus GOE worthy jumps too.... Nothing about Dai's jumps were disruptive and he didn't omit an entire element.

    And I'm sorry 5 point lead on PCS is a huge lead and its more than enough to question it. The issue is the feeling once again that the judges will give it to Chan no matter what he does and what others do. If the judges had let Dai get higher PCS maybe win that long, and Chan still won the short nobody would be really complaining but the 5 point PCS lead (which is fall) says it all to fans.

    Both Dai and Chan have their own strengths. I think Hanyu will someday be the best of both. (has a lot of boths good qualities) He's the one I keep on watching over and over again. Needs some maturity sure, but everything is there.

  2. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Sorry, I see none of what you described above. He is not soft, in fact rather stiff if not stunned facial expression. What puppy-dog? That's like a deer stunned by red lights. You are seeing and reading emotions on Hanyu when none exists. Please forgive the judges and many of us who don't share your crush on this school boy.
    The judges may not have a crush on him but they certainly greatly rewarded what he did. His PCS were pretty high only 2 points behind Takahashi's and 7 behind Chan. He may not be ur cup of tea but the judges seem to like him a bit.

  3. #993
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    The judges may not have a crush on him but they certainly greatly rewarded what he did. His PCS were pretty high only 2 points behind Takahashi's and 7 behind Chan. He may not be ur cup of tea but the judges seem to like him a bit.
    Perhaps Wally Lutz sees the the threat Hanyu can very well place by Sochi. Presentation wise he's only going to get better. And he already took TES last night with his own error...To be able to perform like that at 16, and have the audience eating out of the palm of your hand (with a fall).

  4. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    The judges may not have a crush on him but they certainly greatly rewarded what he did. His PCS were pretty high only 2 points behind Takahashi's and 7 behind Chan. He may not be ur cup of tea but the judges seem to like him a bit.
    You may be right, I may be the odd one out. Hanyu got his highest PCS this season in Nice, whereas for the most part this season, his season trailed the like of Javier Fernandez and others. Based on this, I think it's safe to say his results here still need to be validate/confirm by future competitions to see if the trend is sustainable.

  5. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    You may be right, I may be the odd one out. Hanyu got his highest PCS this season in Nice, whereas for the most part this season, his season trailed the like of Javier Fernandez and others. Based on this, I think it's safe to say his results here still need to be validate/confirm by future competitions to see if the trend is sustainable.
    Yea that true. Is it possible that he go higher PCS because Javier and the others kinda choked? I do think that when he performance he could look up a bit more instead of straight ahead b/c it makes it look like he is looking down quite a lot. If he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas. It was actually kinda surprising to see his PC's higher than at gpf where hehad no disruptions.

  6. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    As confusing as this may sound, I am actually agreeing with you. Would I have given Chan 9s for PE or IN, no, I wouldn't. Earlier, I have also stated that the PCS of this competition is rather "curious", it was a polite way for me to say that I don't entirely agree with the outcomes. That said comparing scores from two different competitions with different judges, let alone one year apart when some rules and trends would have surely changed - is a risky business. I am sure you'd agree it can be like comparing apples and oranges given the different circumstances. Then the only question left is to ask should Takahashi being given higher PE and IN scores? Keep in mind, being behind the music affects mostly PE but not so much the IN. Sure, one can argue that when Chan hit his flying combination spin, he didn't hit while at the music's crescendo but the impact is limited. The trouble is Takahashi had several shaky landings of his own during the LP, which should also lower his PE as well. Whether Chan won by 6 points or 2 points, he still wins. Maybe, the scoring of the PCS was questionable, just keep in mind, judges are humans too, they get nervous and no one is perfect. So long as the end result is correct, does it really matter?
    Of course it matters. His PCS (PE and IN especially, as I said before) were not only in the 9s (except TR), but also the highest of the entire competition and this sends the wrong message to the other skaters, IMO. And Takahashi did deserve higher PCS (I was surprised the score was so low after that performance, to be honest - and this was before Chan even skated).
    Last edited by yuki; 04-01-2012 at 02:55 PM.

  7. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Perhaps Wally Lutz sees the the threat Hanyu can very well place by Sochi. Presentation wise he's only going to get better. And he already took TES last night with his own error.


    His "own error" wasn't penalized on an element. Had that happened on an element, his TES would have dropped like a rock and certainly behind Chan and Takahashi's, even if it was just a spin.

    Let's say I am batting a rival of Hanyu, I can tell you I am not terribly concerned about his potential, not as far as Sochi is concerned. I am being honest. I think Sochi will not be a coronation of anybody, including Patrick Chan. There are other men whom I see as greater competitors than Hanyu. Plus, the fact that Japan has such a competitive national that you better believe there are least 4 men who can legitimately lay claim on a spot for the Olympic team. If they all skate to their potential, it's hard to say who will necessarily on that team and who won't. Two years is a long time; with Team Japan, I doubt anyone has a secured spot on that team now so it's hard for me to lose sleep over a hypothetical rival who isn't even sure to make it to Sochi yet, no offense intended. You remind me of those people who ridiculed my impression on Elena ILINYKH / Nikita KATSALAPOV two years ago. I pretty much said the same thing about them, then a group of Russian fans smacked me because I was "afraid". Well, well, they are still the #2 Russian team and a long, long, long way from being able to challenge for the podium. They are lucky if they can overtake the #2 Canadian team by the time of Sochi, let alone challenging Gold. I am rarely ever wrong in my assessment, you can search my prediction record here in the last two years, I trust you will find them frightenly accurate.

  8. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Dai's spins are no where near Hanyu or Chan's quality. And in terms of quality jumping, Hanyu has just about everyone but Brezina there. I adore Dai, but I can see why he doesn't get the same GOE on his jumps and spins.
    Disagree about Brezina’s jumping quality. Yes, he does have big jumps but his break-waist takeoff position has to go before he can be considered a beautiful jumper. I think Hanyu and Oda have good jumping quality in terms of height, distance, takeoff position, air position, and landing with soft knees. Too bad Oda is injured now.

  9. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Chan was overscored, as usual. He was not the World Champion this year.
    Actually, he is the World Champion this year.

  10. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by rain View Post
    Actually, he is the World Champion this year.
    I think he meant he thought Chan didn't deserve it.

    Then again, you probably knew that already...

  11. #1001
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    This Chris guy, before Patrick's score came out, he said Patrick might just get away with it(the gold). After seeing the score, he changed his tune to "Takahashi surely deserved the gold".
    He wasn't saying that Chan would deserve to win the Gold, only that he might from THIS panel of judges based upon his lead in the SP (which he didn't feel was deserved in the first place...and it wasn't). However, after Chan won the LP when he clearly should have been only 3rd, that's where the huge outrage comes in. He could take Chan undeservedly winning the competition if the other guys were at least marked correctly in the LP for their amazing performances, but that didn't even happen.

    Also, the first time he said Chan "might just get away with it", it was in reference to beating Hanyu. He was stating that Hanyu so far surpassed Chan in the LP that it was uncertain if Chan's SP lead would even keep him above Hanyu. These are thoughts someone should be having if the competition were being judged accurately, but of course that's never how it works with Chan. He has been painted as the "CoP master, best skater in the World" and thus judges give him the best scores even when his performances are inferior because they aren't capable of judging correctly and are afraid of being punished by the ISU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    My opinion: Patrick's LP might be overscored, but not much. He still deserves the gold especially considering Dai didn't get the one point deduction for his fall in SP and Hanyu only got one point deduction for his fall in steps but not GOE deduction.
    Hanyu didn't fall on a step sequence. He fell just going inbetween elements on stroking. As for the one-point deduction in the SP, Dai's jump was incorrectly called as << rather than <. If it had been called correctly, with the one point deduction (which is not a black-and-white call and is actually questionable, but I'll be safe and say it was deserved) but also only a <, he would have been ahead on points. Thus, Takahashi was underscored in that segment of the competition.

  12. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTnoona View Post
    Yea that true. Is it possible that he go higher PCS because Javier and the others kinda choked?... If he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas. It was actually kinda surprising to see his PC's higher than at gpf where hehad no disruptions.
    In the GPF men LP thread, some people, including myself, posted that Hanyu was undermarked on PCS, while Javier was overmarked. Hanyu deserved to win bronze in GPF because he had higher TES and much better skating skills than Javier, but Hanyu wuzrobbed. Good that the judges were right at the Worlds.

    With that said, I still agree with you that “if he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas.” Kozuka has such amazing skating skills and has been lowballed for such a long time. Ever since the introduction of COP, has ISU ever allowed one single country to have more than one skater to consistently score 80+ on PCS? If Plushenko or Yagudin is 17 y.o. now and is representing Japan, then they would be lowballed too. I’d say had Kozuka emigrated to some European country, say Finland or Italy, then he would have scored 83 or 85 on PCS several years ago.

  13. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    In the GPF men LP thread, some people, including myself, posted that Hanyu was undermarked on PCS, while Javier was overmarked. Hanyu deserved to win bronze in GPF because he had higher TES and much better skating skills than Javier, but Hanyu wuzrobbed. Good that the judges were right at the Worlds.

    With that said, I still agree with you that “if he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas.” Kozuka has such amazing skating skills and has been lowballed for such a long time. Ever since the introduction of COP, has ISU ever allowed one single country to have more than one skater to consistently score 80+ on PCS? If Plushenko or Yagudin is 17 y.o. now and is representing Japan, then they would be lowballed too. I’d say had Kozuka emigrated to some European country, say Finland or Italy, then he would have scored 83 or 85 on PCS several years ago.
    Yea - this year. Daisuke's PCs was 85 something, and Yuzuru 83 something (this is from the top of my head). *Nvm, I missed the key word *consistently* :P

    I thought Yuzuru deserved bronze at GPF too. Even tho he skated lights out at World's, his performance at GPF was what sealed the deal - I loved how he fought for every single minute of his program.

  14. #1004
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post


    His "own error" wasn't penalized on an element. Had that happened on an element, his TES would have dropped like a rock and certainly behind Chan and Takahashi's, even if it was just a spin.

    Let's say I am batting a rival of Hanyu, I can tell you I am not terribly concerned about his potential, not as far as Sochi is concerned. I am being honest. I think Sochi will not be a coronation of anybody, including Patrick Chan. There are other men whom I see as greater competitors than Hanyu. Plus, the fact that Japan has such a competitive national that you better believe there are least 4 men who can legitimately lay claim on a spot for the Olympic team. If they all skate to their potential, it's hard to say who will necessarily on that team and who won't. Two years is a long time; with Team Japan, I doubt anyone has a secured spot on that team now so it's hard for me to lose sleep over a hypothetical rival who isn't even sure to make it to Sochi yet, no offense intended. You remind me of those people who ridiculed my impression on Elena ILINYKH / Nikita KATSALAPOV two years ago. I pretty much said the same thing about them, then a group of Russian fans smacked me because I was "afraid". Well, well, they are still the #2 Russian team and a long, long, long way from being able to challenge for the podium. They are lucky if they can overtake the #2 Canadian team by the time of Sochi, let alone challenging Gold. I am rarely ever wrong in my assessment, you can search my prediction record here in the last two years, I trust you will find them frightenly accurate.
    I don't know how I/K Hanyu compare. the only comparision is they all had Jr World titles two years ago. Since then Hanyu has improved tremendously and got some serious results at the international stage, while I/K have progressed at a much lesser rate.

    Everyone can be out two years from now look at D/L world champions off the podium in Vancover. Davis White (6 lower than I/k was this year) 2nd, two years later.

    But the Japanese fed isn't that hard to predict. Do you really think they are going to go with just who performs well that day. :lol: No they are going to go with who delivers the most consistently for them. A lot of us predicted that the Japanese fed was going to drop Oda in favor of Hanyu after Oda's failure to deliver at Worlds once again... Hanyu is far more consistent than Kozuka and Oda are, and is frankly a better competitor than Daisuke OR Chan was at their ages. He also by far has the most consistent quad of the Japanese men.

    Hanyu's Japan's clear no 2 now, and if anything the Japanese fed may be lookiing at his quad and thinking that Hanyu may very well be their no 1 by Sochi...

    In fact I'd argue that Hanyu having to skate for Japan is the best thing for him. If he skated for any other country he'd be fawned over and coddled as the Great Hope in an inch of his life. He was amazing 2 year ago at Jr Worlds. But because he competes for Japan its taught him how to be a strong competitor, and work on his weakness... Because he has too. Daisuke is clear that Hanyu's presence challenges him too...

    This is kid lands quad toe triple axel sequences in practice. he's a phenom of Plushenko proportions.

    The only thing that may hurt him in Sochi is the Japanese fed not wanting him to have Gold, so that they can keep him for four more years.
    Last edited by bekalc; 04-01-2012 at 03:50 PM.

  15. #1005
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    ^

    ITA. The JFS sent Miki Ando to the Olympics even tho she finished off the podium in Nationals.

    I would say Kozuka is still Japan's #2 based on previous National and International results. But not for long, by next season, if Hanyu continues to improve at the same rate, he will clearly be Japan's #2. At the Nationals, I think Hanyu was lowballed - it was quite evident they wanted to maintain the status quo, and used PCs to deny Hanyu from placing higher than 3rd. This is just my take of the event.

    You have to be strong to compete for Japan, there are so many talented skaters in the country I bet those two guys who placed 4th and 5th at the Japanese Nationals could've placed in the Top 15 at World's this year, and I am not even kidding.

    I don't mind if Yuzuru doesn't win Gold at Sochi (he will ony be 19 then), because he will stay in the sport for 4 more years and become a legend, much like Plushenko =D And win some world titles along the way, of course. But Yuzuru said he wants to compete in AT LEAST two Olympics, so even if he wins Gold in Sochi, he will keep going.
    Last edited by Becki; 04-01-2012 at 03:54 PM.

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