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Thread: Men Free Skates

  1. #1006
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becki View Post
    ^

    ITA. The JFS sent Miki Ando to the Olympics even tho she finished off the podium in Nationals.

    I would say Kozuka is still Japan's #2 based on previous National and International results. But not for long, by next season, if Hanyu continues to improve at the same rate, he will clearly be Japan's #2. At the Nationals, I think Hanyu was lowballed - it was quite evident they wanted to maintain the status quo, and used PCs to deny Hanyu from placing higher than 3rd. This is just my take of the event.

    You have to be strong to compete for Japan, there are so many talented skaters in the country I bet those two guys who placed 4th and 5th at the Japanese Nationals could've placed in the Top 15 at World's this year, and I am not even kidding.
    Yes but Kozuka's implosion has to be getting the Japanese fed thinking. Plus I hate to say this because I love kozuka but Hanyu has a better connection with the audience. Technically Hanyu probably already is their strongest, and I'm sure they are seeing it. Although as mentioned they may not want their big bright talent to retire at 19 ala Kulik.

  2. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    In the GPF men LP thread, some people, including myself, posted that Hanyu was undermarked on PCS, while Javier was overmarked. Hanyu deserved to win bronze in GPF because he had higher TES and much better skating skills than Javier, but Hanyu wuzrobbed. Good that the judges were right at the Worlds.
    Fernandez was given the GPF bronze because he was "robbed" at Cup of Russia. That is my guess. Actually I think Takahashi was the most overmarked at GPF. His 4T in the SP should be downgraded and the 4T in the FS was also questionable. Takahashi seems to be undermarked in the PCS in Nice. That's just an impression comes from past patterns. Probably the judges "relocated" some of Takahashi's PCS asset to Hanyu. Hanyu's PCS was unexpectedly high considering a fall and not skating in the final flight. We can see the judges are finally dumping Takahashi on behalf of Hanyu. Takahashi's best effort can't beat not only Chan with 2 falls but also Hanyu with 1 fall. Everyone (maybe except some Canadians) wants Chan's genuine rival. Hanyu was designated as the #1 candidate. I expect Hanyu's PCS will surpass Takahashi in the next season. And he will introduce the 4S in both programs.
    Last edited by NMURA; 04-01-2012 at 03:59 PM.

  3. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    In the GPF men LP thread, some people, including myself, posted that Hanyu was undermarked on PCS, while Javier was overmarked. Hanyu deserved to win bronze in GPF because he had higher TES and much better skating skills than Javier, but Hanyu wuzrobbed. Good that the judges were right at the Worlds.

    With that said, I still agree with you that “if he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas.” Kozuka has such amazing skating skills and has been lowballed for such a long time. Ever since the introduction of COP, has ISU ever allowed one single country to have more than one skater to consistently score 80+ on PCS? If Plushenko or Yagudin is 17 y.o. now and is representing Japan, then they would be lowballed too. I’d say had Kozuka emigrated to some European country, say Finland or Italy, then he would have scored 83 or 85 on PCS several years ago.
    80+ (8's and higher)

    Chinese pairs (64+ is the correlation)
    Russian pairs (V/T and K/S can score above 64)
    American dancers (D/W and B/A were scoring above 48)

    I actually think Hanyu was treated very generously, PCS wise.

  4. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I may be reading some posts wrong but I do sense more than anger, frustration about the system, judging or sadly skaters - but lets not make this personal.
    Exactly, this goes both ways. It is hard to express frustration or anger about Chan's high presentation scores (PE, CH, IN) without mentioning Chan's name. It doesn't mean we hate Chan the skater. I hope Chan fans would not take it personal and label every critic as Chan-haters.

  5. #1010
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Hanyu interview

    What he says for a 17 year old is all kinds of awesome
    sort of g translation.


    Yuzuru Hanyu has bigger dream than Gold medal
    Yuzuru Hanyu's aim is not to become just an ordinary champion.

    "Of course I aim to become a world champion. But not one-time champion. I want to keep winning. - Hanyu said. "Moreover, I want to become a skater who can completely outdistance the rivals. Because I've been looking up to Evgeni Plushenko for a long time."

    Yes, his role model is three-time World champion, seven-time European champion, medalist at three consecutive Olympic Games, "the champion who keeps winning" Evegeni Plushenko.

    In fact, Plushenko also recognizes Hanyu. When they meet at ice shows, Plushenko always said to him, "Overcome me", "Beat me".

    So, 17 years old is not too early to win a medal at the World championships if his role model is Plushenko. This bronze medal is a starting point for his goal of becoming "the champion who keeps winning".

  6. #1011
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    here is Chan's only fall in the competition and watch how quickly he recovers.
    No. He was thenceforth chasing the music till the end when the time clock proved to everyone that he failed a full recovery from the fall.

  7. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    No. He was thenceforth chasing the music till the end when the time clock proved to everyone that he failed a full recovery from the fall.
    Eh, he was behind the music far before the fall, wasn't he?

  8. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Yes but Kozuka's implosion has to be getting the Japanese fed thinking. Plus I hate to say this because I love kozuka but Hanyu has a better connection with the audience. Technically Hanyu probably already is their strongest, and I'm sure they are seeing it. Although as mentioned they may not want their big bright talent to retire at 19 ala Kulik.
    Oda had a even bigger implosion in 2010 at Worlds - he didn't even make the LP! But he still won a trip to World's the next year.

    Yes, I agree Hanyu has a very good connection with the audience. I think it has to do with their personalities - Hanyu is such an energetic, cheerful teenager (although very mature, and well-spoken for his age) and Kozuka is rather shy and timid.

    Hanyu is the most technically consistent Japanese skater. And he will not retire at 19, he wants to be like Plushenko
    Last edited by Becki; 04-01-2012 at 04:19 PM.

  9. #1014
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring
    There is (an absolute floor that says, sorry that element was not successful.) The tech panel calls how many rotations are actually done…
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring
    …even without the 2A, he has had more rotations in the air than most
    That is the part that I would like to see brought into better balance. To me it seems like the tail is wagging the dog. IMHO failing to rotate in the air is not nearly so bad, in the full context of a skating program, as failing to stay on your feet. (JMO.)

    Quote Originally Posted by WallyLutz
    In the case of Chan's botched 2A, he got exactly what you proposed: Fall = 0 points.
    As I said in my post, this is just as it should be. This is one call that the CoP got right. I wish that the judging system were less forgiving of falls in other situations as well.

  10. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Eh, he was behind the music far before the fall, wasn't he?
    Yes, but he lagged further behind the music as a result of the fall.

  11. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Eh, he was behind the music far before the fall, wasn't he?
    Yes, he was indeed behind the music pretty much in the first minute and half of his skate onward. But didn't skatinginbc say she have ears for music and rhythms, how come she failed to notice that, it was very obvious to anyone who had seen this LP before.

  12. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becki View Post
    I would say Kozuka is still Japan's #2 based on previous National and International results. But not for long, by next season, if Hanyu continues to improve at the same rate, he will clearly be Japan's #2. At the Nationals, I think Hanyu was lowballed - it was quite evident they wanted to maintain the status quo, and used PCs to deny Hanyu from placing higher than 3rd.
    This is so true! All men and ladies got a PCS boost at the Japanese Nationals compared to their PCSs at international competitions. Hanyu was the only exception, and he received lower PCS at the Japanese Nationals than at international competitions e.g. Worlds and even GPF.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Fernandez was given the GPF bronze because he was "robbed" at Cup of Russia. That is my guess.
    But the thing is that Javier outscored Hanyu on PCS even in COR. If you take a look at their scores in COR,

    SP_____TES__PCS:
    Javier: 40.11 38.39
    Hanyu: 45.20 37.58

    LP_____TES__PCS:
    Javier: 81.77 81.36
    Hanyu: 82.50 78.38

    In COR, Javier had a 3.79-point margin over Hanyu on PCS, yet Hanyu obviously had much better skating skills. How could someone think that Javier “wuzrobbed”? In fact, Hanyu beat Javier in TES almost every time (COR, GPF, and Worlds). Javier was able to get onto the GPF podium just because the judges gave him an even larger 5.12-point margin on PCS over Hanyu…

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Chinese pairs (64+ is the correlation)
    Russian pairs (V/T and K/S can score above 64)
    American dancers (D/W and B/A were scoring above 48)
    I don’t know much about PCS in pairs and ice dance since I don’t follow them too much. I’m talking about PCS in men’s field. I can’t think of any example that ISU has ever allowed one single country to have more than one skater to consistently score 80+ on PCS.

  13. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Yes, but he lagged further behind the music as a result of the fall.
    eh...yes, thanks for stating the obvious. He lost about 4 seconds due to the fall, surely, that will add more delays, hence the eventual time violation. How do you know judges have not taken this into consideration? Did you see Chan getting 10s or close to 10s for any of those components? Fact is, Chan have consistently beaten Takahashi in their head to head competition this season on PCS. Why is this a surprise? It seems pretty clear the vast majority of judges feel that, everything else being equal, Chan wins, including PCS. Sure, Chan fell once and had a little wobble on his landing of the 3Lz but Takahashi had even more wobbles in his jumps, hence the much lower overall GOE. It's hard to argue his skate was truly clean when two of his elements received negative GOE. So if Chan starts out a higher base value for the PCS, minus his errors, Takahashi's would also receive minus for his wobbles, making both of them imperfect and thus, Chan still wins. Takahashi can't even beat Hanyu in the LP, that's quite telling on its own.

  14. #1019
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I dont like the reuters article posted here about the booing. It serves no good to the sport, and it is bad written. The journalist seems biased anyway.
    And 200% against booing while athletes on the ice, it is not their business the marks, boo the judges, you know their hotel. Or it would be cool if they are announced after the competition and not at the start
    On the other hand I dont mind the booing to Ciquanta. I dont know why he keeps coming, I ve been to so many comps, he either partly booed or dead silence/ not applause when he is announced.

  15. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Yes, he was indeed behind the music pretty much in the first minute and half of his skate onward...it was very obvious to anyone...
    How can that kind of performance deserve 9.0s in presentation when his executed choreography doesn't match the music? It was obvious to everyone, so it must be obvious to the judges as well. Are you implying the judges chose to ignore it because they judged based on who was skating rather than what they were seeing?

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