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Thread: Men Free Skates

  1. #1051
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Let's put the individual skaters back in. Who are in the scenario you described? i.e. an actual skater (or a number of skaters) who falls, stumbles, make obvious errors in executions, while doing nothing special in terms of performance art and get the WHOA whopping marks.
    I don't especially want to go searching for particular examples. It is more a general approach to how the sport is presented that I think is driving a wedge between the experts and rest of us. If the rest of us say, "I don't see what was so great about that performance," the ISU should say. "What can we do to make watching a skating competition more enjoyable and interesting?" Instead, they show us the rule book.

  2. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by fscric View Post
    And someone thought you're a fan of Patrick
    LOL...I wish. He's a nice and cute person, and his skating skills are very good. However, there's something about his skating that doesn't speak to me....

    For the record, I don't think he's light-years beyond his close competitors as the article suggests. He won the competition by a 6-7 point margin, not 30.
    Last edited by Becki; 04-01-2012 at 07:44 PM.

  3. #1053
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    If audiences were to judge, the highest value element is head caressing, which however is not limited to two per program. Takahashi is able to do it five times, one in hysteria inducing combination, plus off ice demonstrations by popular request. Other high value moves would be Running Man, finger guns, finger licking, etc.

    There are reasons there are rules for sport and games and their competitions. A Skating Idol TV show can have its own different rules.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 04-01-2012 at 07:54 PM.

  4. #1054
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz
    I am always amused when people pretend to be mind readers especially when they can't even see the people they are supposedly reading. Something tells me if we leave the decision up to the French audience to decide, Joubert and Amodio won't be off the podium and the same people thinking French audience is their ally will turn sour very, very quickly as well.
    Yeah, argues someone who just some pages ago claimed to know better what someone wrote than that someone himself. But I'll not agrue with you too much, this designed-to-look-knowledgable posts that actually only consist of squeezing in meaningless numbers to make things sound completly different than they actually are, are not a huge motivation to do.
    And they were booing Chan's score, booing through the interview, even some people when he received his medal - yet they cheered for Takahashi and Hanyu. They were fine with two out of three medalists - and they just badly wanted Amodio and Joubert in that podium? 4 people, 3 medals, no counting here. But I guess they're really just that stupid for you, so what

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring
    If audiences were to judge, the highest value element is head caressing, which however is not limited to two per program. Takahashi is able to do it five times, one in hysteria inducing combination, plus off ice demonstrations by popular request.

    There are reasons there are rules for sport and games and their competitions. A Skating Idol TV show can have its own different rules.
    Is it cool these days to think the audience is dumb?
    They were already cheering their lungs out for Hanyu on the 2. jump he made - I must have missed the head caressing there.
    I'd never say the audience should really make a final desicion oranything close to it, but I very well think their reaction is a good indicator for the PE and IN department.
    Last edited by Li'Kitsu; 04-01-2012 at 07:56 PM.

  5. #1055
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't especially want to go searching for particular examples. It is more a general approach to how the sport is presented that I think is driving a wedge between the experts and rest of us. If the rest of us say, "I don't see what was so great about that performance," the ISU should say. "What can we do to make watching a skating competition more enjoyable and interesting?" Instead, they show us the rule book.
    Do you feel the same about gymnastics, sync. divining / swimming and judo? A lot of sports require the audience to know the rules about the sport concerned. I am totally clueless about each of the above sport I named so I don't have the right to be outraged at something I don't understand or haven't put the time to study. Does that mean I can't appreciate the above said sport? Absolutely not. This is where our opinion differs. You are of the view that a person who has not invested the time to be proficient about a sport has a right to be outraged at something he/she doesn't comprehend, aka. average Joe. The truth is, virtually all sports have complicate rules and require some form of human judgement one way or the other. Take the like of baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer and football - all are complicate in their own ways with some well known and not so well known rules. I can say I understand baseball, enough to follow it and without feeling lost about controversial calls. I can also say I am just literate about basketball, soccer hockey, although not as much as baseball. Football is alien to me, I will get lost within 5 minutes of a game. Should the NFL changed its rules to accommodate someone like me? Because clearly, its rules are anything but simple otherwise I would have understood its games intuitively. Same goes for any number of other sports. I have to say the vast majority of complaints against COP seems to be from disgruntled Americans. Rarely do you hear Europeans or Asians complaining about the COP killing this sport. Could it be that those people actually took the time to learn the new system?

  6. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    The Spectator's Steve Milton is known as a seasoned journalist and he writes about Figure Skating for decades, way before COP was even born. If he said he made an effort to contact skating experts, then that means he really contacted a wide range of pros in this sport or else he would have reported dissenting opinions as well. Milton was also on the record to say he didn't believe Chan had a chance of winning the 2010 Olympics in Vancouver (due to lack of a Quad and injuries) before the Games actually happened. Hence, this journalist is by no means a Patrick Chan's fan but nor is he a detractor.
    Are you sure? Milton sounded like a big Patrick fan in that infamous "six inches" article: http://www.thespec.com/sports/article/692757--chan-conquers-toughest-six-inches

  7. #1057
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    If audiences were to judge, the highest value element is head caressing, which however is not limited to two per program. Takahashi is able to do it five times, one in hysteria inducing combination, plus off ice demonstrations by popular request. Other high value moves would be Running Man, finger guns, finger licking, etc.

    There are reasons there are rules for sport and games and their competitions. A Skating Idol TV show can have its own different rules.
    You are right.

    But my fear is that figure skating is so right that it will right itself right out of existence.

    All sports belong to the category "recreation and entertainment." If you do it yourself for fun, that's recreation. If you pay to watch other people do it that's entertainment. If figure skating wants to be solely recreational, then so be it. If it wants to be entertainment, then it must pay attention to its desired audience.

    I don't see why we can't strive for some sort of balance. I do not see what the sport gains by telling it's audience, my way or the highway, chumps. Study the rule book or hit the road.

    They will.

  8. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Are you sure? Milton sounded like a big Patrick fan in that infamous "six inches" article: http://www.thespec.com/sports/article/692757--chan-conquers-toughest-six-inches
    Not to me. I read the article you linked, it's beautifully written in high level English, something I enjoy reading because you don't often see that from journalists who write sports columns. Maybe you can quote a sentence or two where you feel Milton is showing his bias towards Chan?

  9. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Is it cool these days to think the audience is dumb?
    They were already cheering their lungs out for Hanyu on the 2. jump he made - I must have missed the head caressing there.
    I'd never say the audience should really make a final desicion oranything close to it, but I very well think their reaction is a good indicator for the PE and IN department.
    Not dumb nor am I discounting audience connection and charisma. But winners cannot and should not be decided by audience reactions, which are not rational, can be nationalistic, personal, and otherwise very subjective. There will be a lot more discords if World Champions were decided by the audience in attendance. It is not a local event.

    The audience cheered Hanyu's jumps regardless of how the tech panel may view them, which would make a big difference in the final score and his placement. Ditto everybody's jumps. The rules set out precise points for each jump in its various degrees of success. I know a lot of unhappiness has arisen from the so called invisible errors, but it's a highly technical sport and skaters train so hard, there have to be spelled out and fair valuations.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 04-01-2012 at 08:26 PM.

  10. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Do you feel the same about gymnastics, sync. divining / swimming and judo?
    I would hate to see figure skating sink to the level of popular interest that those sports suffer.

    But I think it is too late.

    You are of the view that a person who has not invested the time to be proficient about a sport has a right to be outraged at something he/she doesn't comprehend, aka. average Joe.
    No, not at all. I am not outraged. I am sad. I think figure skating is missing opportunities that would benefit, and in the past have benefitted, all skaters and all people involved in the sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by WallyLutz
    Should the NFL change its rules to accommodate someone like me?
    All major spectator sports continually tweak their rules in an attempt to attract more fans and to provide a product to their market that is as attractive as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally:Lutz
    Could it be that those people actually took the time to learn the new system?
    Could be. But why not also try to attract the interest of people who have not done so?

    It's a win-win situation. Satisfy the customer. Then all boats rise with the rising tide.

    The worst thing we can do is hunker down, secure in our righteousness and superiority, while fending off the teeming masses with the contempt they deserve. No, no. We are all on the same side here.

  11. #1061
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The French were doing a fine job of complaining too, and I have heard complaints from Russians from time to time too.

    In fact consider this interview with Patrick:

    Patrick's win was controversial enough that he got booed by the French audience.

    You can't expect there to be no forum fall out when a win is controversial.

    http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/patr...5159--oly.html

    Some of the crowd jeered when Chan won, perhaps because of his mistakes and Takahashi's superb performance. Chan finished with 266.11 points, almost 6.5 points ahead of Takahashi.

    ''I knew when I got off the ice'' I had won, Chan said. ''I felt like I had won anyway, that opening (was great).''


    ''It was a jump I've been having trouble with this season,'' Chan said. ''On the highlight reel it's not going to look great. But mistakes here and there, it shows that I'm human, right?''

    He regained his composure and his momentum, only to come undone on his last jump. He pulled out of what was going to be a double axel and fell over.

    ''I guess it isn't really normal that I don't make a mistake, it's kind of my thing to have a weird fall,'' Chan joked. ''I was late in the music so that may have been a factor. I rushed the take off. I've been pretty lucky not falling on it earlier the season.''
    Is it really good for the sport of ice skating when our World champion's signature move is "a weird fall?"
    Even though Patrick is joking in the above quote, it is only funny because it is kind of true.

    I don't think it's good for the sport, and I don't think he should have won the LP at this event. He would still have won overall, of course.

  12. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    The French were doing a fine job of complaining too, and I have heard complaints from Russians from time to time too.

    In fact consider this interview with Patrick:

    Patrick's win was controversial enough that he got booed by the French audience.

    You can't expect there to be no forum fall out when a win is controversial.

    http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/patr...5159--oly.html



    Is it really good for the sport of ice skating when our World champion's signature move is "a weird fall?"
    Even though Patrick is joking in the above quote, it is only funny because it is kind of true.

    I don't think it's good for the sport, and I don't think he should have won the LP at this event. He would still have won overall, of course.
    Yet Hanyu's weird fall was cute and good IN. And no usual endless cries that a program with fall(s) should not win over a clean skate from the usual victim Takahashi.

  13. #1063
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Not to me. I read the article you linked, it's beautifully written in high level English, something I enjoy reading because you don't often see that from journalists who write sports columns. Maybe you can quote a sentence or two where you feel Milton is showing his bias towards Chan?
    I linked to that particular article to demonstrate that Milton clearly enjoys Chan's skating and is thus a fan. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, as Milton could be a fan of Chan's skating and still write about figure skating objectively. We all have our favourites, after all.

    And with all due respect, I sincerely doubt that is high-level English. It's some of the purplest prose I've seen in a long time...."He’s so artistic he could make a Stevedore cry; his foot touch is as light as any male’s in skating history; he holds the world points record; and ever since he’s got that rebellious triple axel sitting up straight with its hands folded on its lap, his confidence in his technical repertoire has gone through the roof." COME ON. I'm not doubting the content of his words, but those overwrought metaphors are a bit too much, IMO.

  14. #1064
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Yet Hanyu's weird fall was cute and good IN. And no usual endless cries that a program with fall(s) should not win over a clean skate from the usual victim Takahashi.
    Agree....Hanyu's fall was cute and kinda fit into the choreography :P

  15. #1065
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Yet Hanyu's weird fall was cute and good IN. And no usual endless cries that a program with fall(s) should not win over a clean skate from the usual victim Takahashi.
    Why bother? We all know only Patrick's fall counts and is disruptive to the programme while all others are cute and conducive to the flow of the programme.

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