Men Free Skates

[wallylutz]

Be optimistic, I see Hanyu coming. He might dethrone Patrick next year.

Or he may become Shibs #2, both winning Bronze at their 1st World and deem to have high potential but you know the rest, entirely possible as well... To be honest, I think the latter is more likely than the former, we shall see.

[Bluebonnet]

“On the double Axel it was a combination of being a bit late to the music and it being a long program. I lost concentration a bit,” said Chan. (http://www.thespec.com/sports/articl...nores-the-boos).
Late to the music, finishing behind the music = 9.0s CH and IN?

Very likely if without those problems, his CH and IN would have been having some 10s. So yes, it has been reduced to reflect it.

Chan has the best skating skills, but under the current judging system it is only one of the five categories in PCSs. If the judges like to assign similar scores across all categories without actually differentiating them based on the prescribed criteria and actual performance, let's get rid of all categories and name it "Skating Skills" instead.

Skating Skill is the foundation in PCS and it has been absorbed by every single category in PCS. So maybe the technical portion of CoP is not really 70%. It is over 70%, as we often see that P/E, CH, and IN are being bounded with TES and SS. Whether or not it should be this way is up to debate. But for now, I think Chan is easily seen by the judges as the best in PCS because of his superior SS and his often outstanding technical abilities.

[FTnoona]

Or he may become Shibs #2, both winning Bronze at their 1st World and deem to have high potential but you know the rest, entirely possible as well... To be honest, I think the latter is more likely than the former, we shall see.

I'm gonna be more optimistic about Hanyu's future just b/c this isn't his first year in seniors. He's shown great improvement from his first year in seniors at least TES wise. Shibs were first years on senior when they went to worlds, maybe it was all that youth that helped them. There season wasn't that bad this year either 1st and 2nd place finish on the grand prix but it started going downhill at the GPF and worlds. I think a better comparison for not fulfilling the potential after a "quick" World Bronze would be Arthur. He had two 5th place finish in his GP this year and Worlds was even worse for him.

[Kunstrijdster]

I have often wondered what would be the dominating PCS category if the components just had a different order and, for example, P/E was the first component.

To overcome that psychological bias, my solution would be to program something into the machines that changes the order of input randomly for the components, for each judge and with each skater. This is not as mistake-prone as it sounds cause each component is worth the same so if you mix up your categories you still get the same result.

[Boeing787]

I was a circular step. He had already closed the circle and finished the sequence and was transitioning on. These judges, they do get things right now and then :D

Edit: now that isu wording gets me thinking again. I should think that a skater can actually do any kinds of crazy patterns but it's called after the first part to get it into some of the categories. So if it you start doing half a circular sequence then it's called as such and would likely conclude when you close the circle or abandon the sequence after doing other random pattern stuff.

Makes sense. Thanks.

[Boeing787]

Very likely if without those problems, his CH and IN would have been having some 10s. So yes, it has been reduced to reflect it.

Good point. There were some 10's for Phantom last year! To be honest, I feel the one point music/time deduction was not justified. Patrick's stopped at most one second after the music did.

[Skater Boy]

I rewatched Tak and Chan's performance. I used to say |iked Dai far more but now I am not so sure. As much as I thought some of Chan's routine was bland; Dai's wasn't as hot as I thought and he too had some jump problems. Chan did try harder jumps. I am somewhat disappointed with a lot of posters who undoubted will get upset by my comments. Like patrick or dai the tone is somewhat anti Chan or even more of a hatred or hate crime. I have already expressed preference for a skater does not mean he or she should or will get the higher mark. You can prefer the style of Dai but element for element Chan could still win or score higher. In the end, i think we still have to give some credit to the judges. It wold be just as bad if judges started marking according to these posts - most of us as I have said before are in no position to judge according to COP - how many of a certified to do this?????

I think we have two of he best all around skaters at the top Dai and Patrick. And people, who say Patrick has already won are trying to jinx him or say the fix is in. It might be good to see the judges stay true to themselves and not be biased but us crazy posters who some times lose or lost a sense of reality.

[hurrah]

This Worlds was the first time I did the whole live stream thing, and I truly enjoyed it, though it was very exhausting.

Regarding Patrick's win, I can see that he might win under CoP, and the only issue I have is that as others have said, I thought his P/E and IN score was too high for what he did (and actually even his skating skills that night were sloppy and off). I wish judges would start giving more varied scores according to different categories, so that they reflect what is actually being done. And if PCS was used more properly, I do think that Daisuke might have/could have/should have won the LP.

I did truly find Patrick's long program performance to be underwhelming, but then I saw his exhibition number and his skating skills there were apparent. So I can see what the judges rave about.

[Spun Silver]

In fact consider this interview with Patrick:

...''I guess it isn't really normal that I don't make a mistake, it's kind of my thing to have a weird fall,'' Chan joked. ''I was late in the music so that may have been a factor. I rushed the take off. I've been pretty lucky not falling on it earlier the season.''

Is it really good for the sport of ice skating when our World champion's signature move is "a weird fall?"
Even though Patrick is joking in the above quote, it is only funny because it is kind of true.

I don't think it's good for the sport, and I don't think he should have won the LP at this event. He would still have won overall, of course.

I had this same reaction to Patrick's joke. Does he not care about skating clean? Something the ballerina Suzanne Farrell said once in an interview stuck in my head. She talked about her extreme preparation for each role and performance (e.g., she would memorize her part backwards and forwards and learn all the other roles in the ballet as well). The interviewer said, "You take yourself very seriously, don't you?" Her answer was, "Yes. It's a matter of respect -- for myself, for the audience, and for God who gave me this gift." It's a little hard to wrap my head around the idea of a great champion who is content to fall at least once in almost every comp. I really loved Sasha Cohen's skating and she fell in every comp -- but it sure as heck wasn't a joking matter for her and I don't think it was a matter of effort or high standards either -- it seemed to be a mental problem and she sometimes looked terrified to compete. That's not Patrick.

All that said, I am definitely not anti-Chan. I love watching Patrick stroke (and I don't say that about many skaters, not even my beloved Dai). I don't consider him inartistic as others do. To me he has a quiet, introverted, very mature elegance that is very satisfying and beautiful. I love his security with most of his jumps and the effortless look of his footwork. My main gripes with him are the recycling of programs instead of challenging himself with new material, and the one I mentioned above. I find myself less enthusiastic about him than I was three years ago. Maybe it's all part of a grand plan and once he's stuffed enough quads into his programs he'll move on to eliminating the falls and trying more adventurous programs, but for now there's something missing for me. And -- getting back to the Men's FS -- that does make his win over Dai, esp. in the FS, a bit hard to swallow.

(I will admit I also get a bit sick of the accolades poured on Patrick as if Dai didn't exist. It reminds me of Scott Hamilton saying "Alissa Czisny [or X ... this is one of his favorite phrases] has everything you want in a lady skater." Don't tell me what I want. No one skater is or has everything we want. It's unlikely that Patrick will ever have Dai's communicative ability, his desire to stretch himself with cutting-edge programs, or his passionate perfectionism. And Dai will probably never have Patrick's sheer elegance of skating, his multi-quad ability, or his number of gold medals (although we know he will try to his last competitive breath).)

Sorry to blather on. All this was inspired by let's talk's insulting Patrick, which I don't agree with, and his/her fantasy of how the judges came up with their scores, which makes a certain sense.

[Becki]

Or he may become Shibs #2, both winning Bronze at their 1st World and deem to have high potential but you know the rest, entirely possible as well... To be honest, I think the latter is more likely than the former, we shall see.

I can see Hanyu dethroning Patrick next year. You can't really compare Hanyu to an Ice Dance team...often in Ice Dance there is very little shifting in top positions. The Shibutanis had a very good performance in 2011 and capitalized on a serious error P/B made. A better comparison would be Artur Gachinski, who was also 3rd last year at his world debut. But even so, Artur had a less than stellar GP season leading to his World Bronze (he didn't make the finals)+ Euros (top 5). Hanyu had an amazing season with one GP win + 4th at finals (amazing LP) + 3rd in country in such a deep field. He had an outside shot for a medal, so it wasn't like he enter World's with a sub-par season than rocked it. And Hanyu has nerves of steel! That kid is a fighter, and very ambitious - he wants to learn all the quads including the quad axel.

On another note, I can't believe Hanyu improved his Season's Best by 25 points (!!!). His total score at the beginning of the season was 226, at the end 251. Pretty impressive, especially in his LP!

[Boeing787]

one reason for Dai's low IN mark could be the program itself. The music has the same rythm thoughout the whole piece. And Aranjuez's rythm changes. In other words, Dai interpreted a rather simple piece of music while Patrick did a more complicated one. The IN marks from the judges were quite uniform, which tells you something.

[Becki]

one reason for Dai's low IN mark could be the program itself. The music has the same rythm thoughout the whole piece. And Aranjuez's rythm changes. In other words, Dai interpreted a rather simple piece of music while Patrick did a more complicated one. The IN marks from the judges were quite uniform, which tells you something.

I thought Daisuke's music was more complex than Patrick. I mean if it's the same rhythm throughout the piece (which I disagree), wouldn't that be harder to interpret that something that is more dynamic with obvious accents?

[Boeing787]

I rewatched Tak and Chan's performance. I used to say |iked Dai far more but now I am not so sure. As much as I thought some of Chan's routine was bland; Dai's wasn't as hot as I thought and he too had some jump problems. Chan did try harder jumps. I am somewhat disappointed with a lot of posters who undoubted will get upset by my comments. Like patrick or dai the tone is somewhat anti Chan or even more of a hatred or hate crime. I have already expressed preference for a skater does not mean he or she should or will get the higher mark. You can prefer the style of Dai but element for element Chan could still win or score higher. In the end, i think we still have to give some credit to the judges. It wold be just as bad if judges started marking according to these posts - most of us as I have said before are in no position to judge according to COP - how many of a certified to do this?????

I think we have two of he best all around skaters at the top Dai and Patrick. And people, who say Patrick has already won are trying to jinx him or say the fix is in. It might be good to see the judges stay true to themselves and not be biased but us crazy posters who some times lose or lost a sense of reality.

I think watching videos makes you like Dai more but watching them live you'd appreciate Patrick more.

[Boeing787]

I thought Daisuke's music was more complex than Patrick. I mean if it's the same rhythm throughout the piece (which I disagree), wouldn't that be harder to interpret that something that is more dynamic with obvious accents?

I saw him repeate the same movement again and again. I am afraid the judges thought so too. I recall one judge made similar comments on Lambiel.

[Becki]

I watched Patrick and Daisuke live at the beginning of the season, and I appreciated Daisuke more. It's such a complex piece to interpret, and I think he does a good job. Although I have to admit, Patrick is a faster skater, he has so much speed. If he skates Aranjuez perfectly/cleanly, it would make more of an impact.