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Thread: Men Free Skates

  1. #1231
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Let's Talk
    The first and up to now the only World Champion in FS who got booed. Guiness record.
    I think that record is held by Trixie Schuba at the 1971 World Championships in Lyon.

    Janet Lynn won the free skate, but was only fifth in figures and did not make the podium. The audience booed so loud and so long that eventually the French official (legendary pairs skater Pierre Brunet) had to tell Janet Lynn to go out onto the the ice and take a little bow and tell the crowd to stop booing.

    (The upshot of this was, the ISU changed the scoring system. Just saying... )

  2. #1232
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski
    So if we are going to construct a conspiracy theory, this would be the theory:

    David Dore, former head of Skate Canada, is an ISU bigwig, and considered next in line to Speedy.

    So what Dore wants, and what Canada wants, they might well be likely to get these days, provided it doesn't interfere with what Speedy/ Italy wants, of course.
    I like NMURA's idea better. The Japanese Federation wants to dump Takahashi and go with Hanyu. This would be awkward if Takahashi happened to be the world champion. Therefore the Japanese Federation instructed the judges at Worlds to give Chan all 9's in program components.

    Actually, though, the David Dore situation is quite interesting. I don't know all the details, but the ISU Constitution formerly said that the ISU President could not serve past age 70. When Cinquanta turned 70 (he is 74 now), they set that rule aside to let him serve out his term. Then then set it further aside to let him run for another term. Now, according to the interview with Alexander Lakernik, the biggest issue before this year's ISU Cingress is a proposal to allow Cinquanta to go on four more years beyond that.

    David Dore is already 72, so if he does indeed plan to succeed Cinquanta, the age provision will have to be revisited again. I would expect that there will be other (younger) candidates as well. All very interesting!

  3. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Yes but the 29 year old Euros version would have beaten Lysacek by a mile.
    I agree, it is too bad he was too arrogant and lackadaisical in his las comeback. He should have won the Olympics easily if he came in as prepared as he was for Europeans this year. He probably has learnt his lesson, but unfortunately the field is too strong now.

  4. #1234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I like NMURA's idea better. The Japanese Federation wants to dump Takahashi and go with Hanyu. This would be awkward if Takahashi happened to be the world champion. Therefore the Japanese Federation instructed the judges at Worlds to give Chan all 9's in program components.
    Interesting theory, but why now and not at the Japanese Nationals? I mean, look at Yuzuru's LP PCs were for a near perfect program and then at Takahashi's flawed LP. Big, big difference. I know Yuzuru wasn't going to win the competition by placing first in the LP, but he could've been closer to the top 2 if his PCs were a bit higher.

    I doubt JFS wants to dump Takahashi, he has a pretty big fan base in Japan and more well known than Yuzuru (I still love you Yuzu!). I think they wanted to bring out the monster in Takahashi by placing him beyond Yuzuru in the program even after skating the program of his life (I swear I couldn't breathe...it was so magical!!). It will motivate Takahashi to further upgrade his jump content, and strive for perfection in his artistry. They are trying to make Takahashi a legendary skater *nod nod*, not just a 2X WC.

  5. #1235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I like NMURA's idea better. The Japanese Federation wants to dump Takahashi and go with Hanyu. This would be awkward if Takahashi happened to be the world champion. Therefore the Japanese Federation instructed the judges at Worlds to give Chan all 9's in program components.

    Actually, though, the David Dore situation is quite interesting. I don't know all the details, but the ISU Constitution formerly said that the ISU President could not serve past age 70. When Cinquanta turned 70 (he is 74 now), they set that rule aside to let him serve out his term. Then then set it further aside to let him run for another term. Now, according to the interview with Alexander Lakernik, the biggest issue before this year's ISU Cingress is a proposal to allow Cinquanta to go on four more years beyond that.

    David Dore is already 72, so if he does indeed plan to succeed Cinquanta, the age provision will have to be revisited again. I would expect that there will be other (younger) candidates as well. All very interesting!
    If the Japanese federation has indeed moved on to Hanyu as their top hope for 2014, then they in fact probably wouldnt have wanted Takahashi to win Worlds. So that theory, even if said in jest, is not at all far fetched.

  6. #1236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that record is held by Trixie Schuba at the 1971 World Championships in Lyon.

    Janet Lynn won the free skate, but was only fifth in figures and did not make the podium. The audience booed so loud and so long that eventually the French official (legendary pairs skater Pierre Brunet) had to tell Janet Lynn to go out onto the the ice and take a little bow and tell the crowd to stop booing.

    (The upshot of this was, the ISU changed the scoring system. Just saying... )
    Dad seems to remember something happening one year that Dorothy Hamill skated. She thought they were booing her, but they were booing her scores instead because they were too low?

  7. #1237
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    4. Blades, do you think this was Dai at his expressive best? Because I actually thought he was a little more focused throughout the program on nailing all the elements.
    I agree. However, Chan was even more off in his performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I agree. However, Chan was even more off in his performance.
    Agreed.

  9. #1239
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    If the Japanese federation has indeed moved on to Hanyu as their top hope for 2014, then they in fact probably wouldnt have wanted Takahashi to win Worlds. So that theory, even if said in jest, is not at all far fetched.
    I can definitely see it happening too. Hanyu is young and has potential through the roof, while Takahashi is old and doddering and although he looks to be getting his quad back, he might end up getting arthritis or something before Sochi. The JSF throws all their politicks behind Hanyu in the big competitions, but occasionally throw Takahashi a bone or two (i.e. let him win NHK and a few medals here and there) to keep him around since Takahashi rakes in the $$$ for the JSF with his big fanbase. I suppose we'll know all when we see whose PCS are the wonkiest at Japanese Nationals next season.

    But the most solid thing about this whole Hanyu-Takahashi scenario is that poor Kozuka is definitely screwed. Back into the #3 dustbin for you!

  10. #1240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    No, it's not just you, count me in. I will leave out the costume part, though. He used to wear some pinkish top.
    Count me in as another one... I love Daisuke's presence and charisma, though. I don't consider him boring at all, just nowhere nearly as musical as most of the skating world seems to view him.

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    But the most solid thing about this whole Hanyu-Takahashi scenario is that poor Kozuka is definitely screwed. Back into the #3 dustbin for you!
    It appears so. Gah.

  11. #1241
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    COP is a scoring system which can create winners that the average person or for that matter skating enthusiast cannot, will not or may not comprehend. Likewise, legitimately the 6.0 could create some unpopular winners. Booing any skater is inappropriate, rude, unsportsmanlike and uncalled for. Everyone deserves respects; we are a civilized society. If this continues and fortunately the Olympic committee doesn't base what should be an Olympic sport on these forums we could easily kill the sport of skating from ever being watch on tv or at the olympics. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but we aren't the judges. And these conspiracy theories now and for the future are ridculous. Let's not all get paranoid. I have seen some great analysis as to why Dai should win and why Chan should win. It's not like it wasn't possible either could win. It would equally be wrong that judges read these opinions and then start a bias against Patrick. Should Kostner be marked down and lose her title because of all the years many felt she was over marked, lucky or whatever? Should Evan be forced to give back his Olympic and or world title? Maybe Scott Hamilton should be given his title back because Brian Orser beat him in the short and long programs in the 1984 Olympics. Hamilton started making mistakes probably because of the pressure of Orser; did we hear boos? Opinions will vary for ever unless we are all lobotomized. I just hope we can all try to see how we all came to our own conclusions. Stop the fighting children! We saw some great skating.

  12. #1242
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I sincerely doubt that whether fans boo or not will affect whether a sport is televised.

    Soccer, for example, is widely televised, and it has plenty of booing, and obnoxious vuvuzuela's.

    That doesn't mean that booing is good manners.

    In fact, TV is more apt to cover sports where people care enough about the results to behave badly, or for that matter, cheer loudly for their favorites.

    The worst thing for the sport would be if the audience did not care enough to jump to their feet and give a resounding standing ovation for any of the performances.

  13. #1243
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    Booing won't affect a sport's popularity, but predetermined winners will.
    Patrick Chan's skating skills are so superior to everyone else's, according to the judges, that he will win. Period. Every time.
    He skates clean, he breaks a record by a huge, record-breaking margin of points.
    He makes a couple of little mistakes, he wins by a medium record-breaking number of points
    He falls once, he wins by a healthy margin, but doesn't break a record.
    Falls twice or makes two mistakes, he still wins.
    Falls three times, he squeaks by.
    Falls four times, maybe if the person in 2nd has the skate of his life, he may get the silver. Maybe. The only people who can be enjoying watching this is the people on the Fan Fest and Patrick's friends and family.

    Yet we remember:
    Michelle's dreams were dashed when she fell and Sarah/Irina did not.
    Brian Orser lost to Brian Boitano because he put his foot down on a flip or something.
    People like Kurt Browning and Todd Eldredge never get a medal at all because they fell or messed up on their big day. I'm sure they, as world champions, had excellent skating skills. But that didn't help them.

    We want to sit on the edge of our seats hoping that our favorite skates clean so they will win. We want to see triumph and heartbreak. We don't want to see medals given to someone who has a lackluster performance but wins on transitions and edging. It might not be the wrong thing to do from a pure skating point of view, but it makes for a boring spectator sport.

  14. #1244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    Booing won't affect a sport's popularity, but predetermined winners will.
    Patrick Chan's skating skills are so superior to everyone else's, according to the judges, that he will win. Period. Every time.
    He skates clean, he breaks a record by a huge, record-breaking margin of points.
    He makes a couple of little mistakes, he wins by a medium record-breaking number of points
    He falls once, he wins by a healthy margin, but doesn't break a record.
    Falls twice or makes two mistakes, he still wins.
    Falls three times, he squeaks by.
    Falls four times, maybe if the person in 2nd has the skate of his life, he may get the silver. Maybe. The only people who can be enjoying watching this is the people on the Fan Fest and Patrick's friends and family.

    Yet we remember:
    Michelle's dreams were dashed when she fell and Sarah/Irina did not.
    Brian Orser lost to Brian Boitano because he put his foot down on a flip or something.
    People like Kurt Browning and Todd Eldredge never get a medal at all because they fell or messed up on their big day. I'm sure they, as world champions, had excellent skating skills. But that didn't help them.

    We want to sit on the edge of our seats hoping that our favorite skates clean so they will win. We want to see triumph and heartbreak. We don't want to see medals given to someone who has a lackluster performance but wins on transitions and edging. It might not be the wrong thing to do from a pure skating point of view, but it makes for a boring spectator sport.
    When Roger Federer was in his prime, he was pretty much a predetermined winner.
    He played very well and his rival happened to be in a bad day, he won by a huge, record-breaking margin of points.
    He made a couple of little mistakes, he won by a medium record-breaking number of points
    He was not in good form and made some stupid mistakes, he still managed to win.
    He won 41 straight matches.

    So why can't it be a figure skater?

    Skating clean is good, but it shouldn't be the decisive factor. One should look at the whole package, that's the essence of COP. It's only fair to judge this way. This is how most evaluations are done nowadays.
    Last edited by Boeing787; 04-07-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  15. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    For me, Takahashi's FS was boring. Why? It seems as though he has a limited repertoire of style and his programs all look same-ish, from facial expression, gesture to his costumes, even the color is almost always predominantly black in the last few years.
    Sweetheart, are you sure you have a colour TV? La Strada, Mambo, Blues, etc. costumes have a little or nothing in common. Even his hair style depends on the costume he wears. The same facial expressions in different programs? Oh, that's easy to find- go on youtube and search for "Patrick Chan".
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    the closed minds
    It's getting boring- to call everyone who disagrees with you some dumb close minds who knows nothing. It rather describes you well than you opponents since ending up with name calling is your best "weapon" left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anna View Post
    I'd bet Fusar-Poli/Margalio over Anisina/Peizerat was not especially welcomed by general audience, and Krylova/Ovsyannikov over Anissina/Peizerat in Helsninki-1999 was definitely not. I also remember a lot of booing then a flawed performance by Berezhnaya/Sikhaurlidze beat clean Shen/Zhao, but I am not sure if it was WC or not. Ditto for Totmyanina/Marinin vs. Shen/Zhao, at very least in Dortmund (S/Z won the LP, but were 4th in the SP, so they had to settle for silver, despite being quite magical that night).
    Besides, I believe the reason for the booes was the fact that up till Patrick's skate Joubert was ranked third. The moment his marks were announced Joubert was kicked off the podium.
    You know, the French but in fact an international audience was not some drunk football hooligans who occasionally dropped in to watch the FS Worlds. They realized that Brian lost the medal when they saw his scores and his name under Hanyu. Brian even had to show some gestures to cool people down. The booing that took place after Chan's skating was about the unfair judgement that put him on the 1st place. Your reference to pairs and dances is irrelevant. I think it was quite obvious that I was talking about Men's event, not about some diva-ish dances, especially of that era. But even then I doubt that skaters were actually booed on the podium. In Men's event Chan is the only up to now who is keeping that record. But you don't have to be upset much. He said that he didn't actually hear anything, just some noise in the background. What a good middle finger to the paying customers.
    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    In Japan, Takahashi is certainly more famous than Hanyu and he's heavily favored by the JSF simply because he was the best shot at world/olympic medals.. But the international judges seem to have little trust in Takahashi anymore. The results at WC (almost perfect Takahashi <= Hanyu w/ one fall) has proven that the ISU is going to promote Hanyu thereafter. Even the JSF should know Takahashi's brand is falling in its value. They don't have much choice.
    Pardon but your speculations don't correspond to the facts. Takahashi was more than generously marked at NHK by international judges (with no chanadian as a competitor there) where he got the record score in SP this season. Hanyu didn't actually have super succesful performances and he got partly lucky that he won Cup of Russia. His skating in LP at Worlds, and only there, was a surprise for everyone, but a fair and honestly expected surprised. JSF doesn't have any reasons to drop Dai as #1 of Japan due to a very simple explanation- Chan vs. Hanyu simple doesn't work for Japan favour at Olympics. Because in this case Chan obviously has an advantage over a J-teen. Basically, the only one who win in this case would be Chanada, and win in advance. That is not the scenario that JSF wants in Sochi. You know. In case you don't- the JSF official Yoshiko Kobayashi said: "Not only competing to win by himself but Daisuke is always trying to show his good performance for audience. He would not like them to see a fixed game at all. And also Daisuke knows that he will compete with Chan to give a boost to the figure skating world." (translation by Dai forum). I would add that the comment about "fixed game" is quite a hint, if not a snark for that indirect language.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that record is held by Trixie Schuba at the 1971 World Championships in Lyon.
    Janet Lynn won the free skate, but was only fifth in figures and did not make the podium. The audience booed so loud and so long that eventually the French official (legendary pairs skater Pierre Brunet) had to tell Janet Lynn to go out onto the the ice and take a little bow and tell the crowd to stop booing.
    (The upshot of this was, the ISU changed the scoring system. Just saying... )
    Some kids around were not even in a project in 1971 so I can't possibly remember that incident. But it's indeed on youtube: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzvtjbcv-Cs#t=2m07 Nice to hear that the reason why the changed the system was make a better connection to the audience, and we know who did it better at Worlds-12. But I am not so optimistic about possible changes. What I know about David-oldboy, if he becomes the next ISU boss, it will be ISU=Skate Canada with the secrecy of judging in apply. What I don't get the most is what's the point. The system that they introduced after SLC is not working, the popularity of the sport is declining rapidly. And yet David&Co will definitely keep it till death. ISU officials remind me of directors of Soviet plants- the system doesn't work, it doesn't bring any profits but they stick with it just becuase they believe the system is best! Well, the next WOG host country definitly has some expertise in destroying Soviet economy plants. But knowing that they harness horses slowly but drive fast, I guess now they are still at the stage of thinking to move their butts to the stables or not.

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