04-07-2012, 12:16 PM
If we are speaking about audience reactions, I think there is an important difference between figure skating and tennis. In tennis, we know why Roger Federer beat his opponent. We all saw Federer hit the ball over the net so hard that the other guy couldn't return it, or hit it out of bounds. Once in a while a skater serves up a "you can't touch this" ace, too. Then there is no question.
Originally Posted by Boeing787
But in general, as Skater Boy says above, skaters win because of things that the fans can't see or appreciate.
Did Patrick display better "balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement" (a criterion for Skating Skills) than Daisuke? The audience can't tell, and indeed except for balance (don't lose it!) hardly know what this is talking about.
Was Patrick more "physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement" than Daisuke? (This is P&E. I am not sure what "equal" means -- maybe this is only for pairs skating? Or do they mean that the skater is "equal to the task" demanded by the music?)
Was Patrick superior to Daisuke in Utilization of Personal and Public Space (CH)? Did Patrick, more so than Daisuke, maintain "the character and style of the music throughout the entire program by use of body and skating techniques to depict a mood, style, shape, or thematic idea as motivated by the structure of the music"? (INT). The typical audience member scarcely knows what any of this means. They cannot see, as the judges apparently can, why Patrick's skate deserves a 9 in these categories and Daisuke's an 8.5.
04-07-2012, 01:07 PM
When you think about it Trixie Schuba won fair and square that was the system back then. Booing was inappropriate. Just like arguably Katrina Witt should have lost her 1988 title; the scoring system and the way things were weighted allowed her to win over darkhorse Manley. There was probably more fodder for Manley to win as some felt Witt was overmarked in school figures and the short (should have been behind Debi Thomas - but again what do we know we aren't judges). However, there probably wasn't so much booing because Witt was pretty and popular, Liz wasn't she even lost her hair and she was so happy with silver skating h er best that it wasn't seen as a disappointment.
Originally Posted by Mathman
04-07-2012, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Poodlepal
I think you sadly missed my point. The booing, bickering, whining whatever about skating positions/placements only feeds fodder that skating is not a real sport especially to those who mock skating or the uneducated fan or audience member. COP is so complex and unfamiliar to the skating enthusiasts ie on the forums like here to the casual watcher it is hard to understand who should win. The uneducated skating watcher might think a clean double filled routine should win over a 7 triple two quad one fall routine. If skating enthusiasts are booing why should the average sport fan want to watch or think it is a legit sport.
Dai fans, Chan fans, whoever you like it will be hard to sway anyone. I used that analogy of a debate competition - you may prefer the position of one side but when you judge the actual competiton though you don't like the style or position of one team it could easily win based upon each area judged being scored higher even though you preferred the other team. In fact that is a sign probably there is fair judging when that can happen. Likewise I preferred Dai's costumes, music and style over Patrick. Chan may fall and Dai may stay on his feet but Dai may have several iffy landings and underrotations. Besides who said an extrovert style deserves more marks automatically over an introvert like Chan? doesn't say that in the rules?
I have seen some great analysis as to why or how Chan could win with the performance he had. I am sure we could argue for Dai or even Hanyu. I suppose if you are that mad about the results you could stop watch skating...sadly the more we scream and whine the more we may be killing the sport.
Even in Salt Lake I could see how Sale and Pelletier from Canada could be second. Back then artistry broke the tie. If you had Canada first on tech and Russia second but reversed for artistic impression well the winner of artistry would get gold.
Regardless, wow some great skating high level choreo, spins, footwork and quads. When did we have so much good skating and people pushign each other. Congrats to Dai and Patrick, Hanyu and nice come back Brian. Brezina your day will come
04-09-2012, 11:05 AM
There are some priorities in order. For the competitions, the most important thing is to please the judges' eyes. For the exhibitions, the most important thing is to please the audience eyes.
04-09-2012, 04:09 PM
I know, that's the disadvantage of this sport. But what can you do? Change the rules to please the audience at the expense of undermining the progress of the sport? Or educate the public to understand the rules? Sorry, but I can't help but bring up the Bruno metaphor again, to the dismay of Let's Talk.
Originally Posted by Mathman
04-10-2012, 09:06 AM
What is funny is I was the one who noticed 18 months ago the judges were starting to give Chan atleast a 4 fall margin over his competitors. People laughed it off then. Now fast forward and for awhile now everyone has been agreeing with the premise that I started and are irate about it (other than the most dire and delusional of Chan fans).
Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-10-2012 at 09:25 AM.
04-10-2012, 02:40 PM
Pangtongfan you are more realistic now with the 4 fall margin and I guess he is so good that Chan may have and may deserve a four fall margin.
When we thought you were were delusional was when your margin went up to 9 and 10 falls!
04-10-2012, 07:52 PM
I said 9 and 10 falls for Nationals. Which at Nationals is about right. He literally would have to fall 9 or 10 times to lose to Kevin Reynolds even skating perfectly (and in that particular case it isnt even much of an exagerration on reality vs the tiny jumping/slow/no style cheated quad kiddish adult and the rest of the Canadian men mugs, unlike the international scores).
04-10-2012, 09:19 PM
True, I can see that happening. But if he falls 10 times, wouldn't that be -10 (probably a record too)? If Kevin stakes a clean and perfect SP and LP (fully rotated quads), and Patrick falls 10 times (SP and LP combined), it might come close. I think Patrick will still win given his higher PCs cushion.
Originally Posted by pangtongfan
04-11-2012, 10:26 AM
I don't want to make this personal, but I really think some people need a reality check. Patrick only won by a few points with one fall and the second place guy had a fall too. Forget allegiances, favouritism by us on the board but I think people are delusional to think if for example Patrick falls 10 times he would beat a quad filled, clean Reynolds. Patrick would almost have no points for jumps. I wonder if there was this much outrage when Katrina Witt was winning with her garbage triple performances, unpointed toes and such? Or what about Carolina when she was getting medals with error filled performances? Equally could be said about Sasha Cohen how her pcs and sometimes amazing goes she too can be argued as overmarked. And what about Evan a very strong argument can be made his pcs should not be near Lambiel, Buttle, Chan, Takahashi, Abbott even when clean. Of course these are opinions but they could be easily be argued.
04-12-2012, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by Skater Boy
Sigh what people are made about is Patrick's pcs vs Daisuke's pcs in that long program. Also a fall wasn't Chan's only error in that program, and he wasn't squecky cleani n the short. I don't have a problem with Patricks' win overall, but I DO have a problem with his pcs vs Daisuke's in the long. Daisuke out skated him in the long.
04-12-2012, 11:19 AM
Oh, my dear Boeing, you don't have to apologize. I am fine, so is my boy. I live in a fandom where I can enjoy my favourite sport and shows multiple times a year. My boy is a rock star here, he adored internationally, advertisers are greedy for him, he just collected 10 mil yen at one charity show, his name sells full houses, he is the one who will be remembered positively. Your boy already made a history as the most controversial champion in Men's, he is the target for mocking and boos, he is not rich, even at his home rink he couldn't collect the audience. Just you in front of your monitor. A zamboni is never a bruno. Keep it n mind, for a change.
Originally Posted by Boeing787
04-12-2012, 05:44 PM
Is your boy Daisuke? "His name sells full house", now that's the power of image! But I feel bad for Patrick, it's not his fault he wins with underwhelming performances :'( I heard he's a very nice and down-to-earth person on and off the ice. I have to disagree, at his home (I am assuming anywhere in Canada), he is easily the most polished and best skater among his cohort (or anybody really). He tends to put on his best performances at Nationals, and he is without a doubt, the clear winner. I can't say the same about his other performances....but at home, he's well loved
Originally Posted by let`s talk
(I am a Daisuke fan!)
04-14-2012, 03:38 AM
Becki, yes. let's talk's boy must be Daisuke.
Originally Posted by Becki
Shizuka, Dai and other skaters organized their 2nd charity ice show in Kobe this Tuesday and collected 10 million yen.
And I think let's talk meant, by saying 'his home rink', Patrick's home rink in Colorado Springs where he normally trains, and where there were, seemingly via TV, many empty seats during 4CC this year.
Last edited by deedee1; 04-14-2012 at 03:42 AM.
04-14-2012, 07:57 AM
^ Although you can't blame Patrick for the fact that figure skating in the U.S. is on life support these days.